Problem With FBO Flight Training

[AOPAPILOT]

One of the problems that I still hear about with FBO flight training is a lack of standards. I recently talked with a former student of mine and he is now thanking me for holding him to higher standards and providing the proger training reference materials during his flight training. He was always given a lesson to study for the next flight and knew what to expect. He also used the Jeppesen training materials. I highly recommend the Jeppesen training products. This is not an ad for the Jeppesen Company. The materials available are one of the best. There are other training materials out there, but Jeppesen has the right mix of training reference and materials in kit form. I highly recommend that student pilots attend a formalized ground school, if one is available. If not, then the next best source is using a flight information-training source like Jeppesen. There are programs using the internet. I know that Sporty’s catalog has a flight-training program.

What other training kits do you CFI’s recommend?

 

[El Cid Av8or]

I'm not an instructor yet but I really like the ASA books. They are very well detailed and the organization is good too. They don't have color pictures like the Jeppessens but they work just as well.

 

[U-I pilot]

I am also not yet an instructor but I have taken flight classes at a part 61 school before my current 141 school. I was started out on the jeppessen collection and have stuck with it as it is the best for me as a student to understand. In my college we were told to buy a rod mochado book but it really didnt compare. I would stick to jeppessen the rest of the way through my training!

 

[bobbysamd]

FBO training v. Part 141 training

Highly controversial subject. I'll begin by saying that both methods work. I'll also say that some FBOs offer Part 141 courses, so we must differentiate between Part 61 FBO training and Part 141 school training.

I did all my training under Part 61 with instructors who either owned their own airplanes or who had access to those I needed for certain phases in the training. Then, my first full-time job was instructing at ERAU, which was Part 141. Major culture shock because of the formality and discipline, which I learned quickly to appreciate. For one thing, I was chagrined (or maybe freaked out) when I realized how little I really knew as compared to the other instructors and the students. So, I had to study and work to get up to speed. I'm sure that if I had trained under Part 141 the knowlege difference would not have been so great and I might have flown better sooner to boot.

Part 141 students are held to standards throughout their training, which is evaluated all along the way via stage checks and/or FAA practicals. Most people detest stage checks, but they are valuable in the long run. They provide a second opinion as to a student's progress. They are valuable to instructors because they provide feedback on the quality of instruction. Under Part 61, one instructor may supervise all training. I recall that I sent my first Private student (under Part 61, before I went to work at Riddle) for a "stage check" with another instructor just before his practical. I wanted to be sure that I wasn't missing anything. BTW, he passed on the first shot with a strict examiner - I was delighted!

I think the main value of 141 training is the discipline. It is school, so you must prepare. The discipline will serve you down the line. But, that is not to say that Part 61 doesn't also work.

I like the Jepp materials, but you need to also work with the FAA's pubs. FAA publications are its final word on what to know and how to do it. You have to know, say and do according to the FAA, even if you, your instructor or your examiner disagree.

 

[dmspilot00]

Re: FBO training v. Part 141 training

Highly controversial subject. I'll begin by saying that both methods work. I'll also say that some FBOs offer Part 141 courses, so we must differentiate between Part 61 FBO training and Part 141 school training.

I did all my training under Part 61 with instructors who either owned their own airplanes or who had access to those I needed for certain phases in the training. Then, my first full-time job was instructing at ERAU, which was Part 141. Major culture shock because of the formality and discipline, which I learned quickly to appreciate. For one thing, I was chagrined (or maybe freaked out) when I realized how little I really knew as compared to the other instructors and the students. So, I had to study and work to get up to speed. I'm sure that if I had trained under Part 141 the knowlege difference would not have been so great and I might have flown better sooner to boot.

Part 141 students are held to standards throughout their training, which is evaluated all along the way via stage checks and/or FAA practicals. Most people detest stage checks, but they are valuable in the long run. They provide a second opinion as to a student's progress. They are valuable to instructors because they provide feedback on the quality of instruction. Under Part 61, one instructor may supervise all training. I recall that I sent my first Private student (under Part 61, before I went to work at Riddle) for a "stage check" with another instructor just before his practical. I wanted to be sure that I wasn't missing anything. BTW, he passed on the first shot with a strict examiner - I was delighted!

I think the main value of 141 training is the discipline. It is school, so you must prepare. The discipline will serve you down the line. But, that is not to say that Part 61 doesn't also work.

You had quite a unique experience. Perhaps its just the way it was back then, or just a coincidence, but it is like that no longer. I learned to fly at a Part 61 school, and then went to a Part 141 for instrument. I think I knew more than the instructors at the Part 141 school, and it was pathetic. Obviously I am not going there anymore. It was quite a prominent school too, about 12 airplanes, and associated with a CC. There was one girl that, at 40 hours, she was too afraid to do a stall, and whined that she shouldn't have to do them in order to be a pilot (that's an extreme example). Another student on his commercial xcountry at said school ran out of gas because he chose not to refuel for a 500 mile flight.

I don't call it good instruction when an instructor sitting beside you gives you assignments (e.g. "do slow flight") and then tells you when you're altitude or airspeed is not within standards. In fact my instructor for private emphasized numbers and numerical standards very little. That instructor was (is) a true teacher and the standard that I was held to was that I understood and could make decisions. I don't need the instructor to tell me when my altitutde is 100 feet off if I am capable of realizing it myself.

Part 141 schools are generally (and I do mean generally, not all) pilot factories that won't teach you a thing about flying. Some 141-produced pilots and even instructors shouldn't even be allowed to ride in an airplane let alone fly one.

I've had experiences with multiple 141 and 61 schools and they've been consistent.

I'm not knocking your training your ability as a pilot bobbysamd, but rather I'm trying to convince you and others that what you experienced is very unusual and uncommon today.

Not as a CFI (since I'm not one!), but as I former student, the only thing I'd recommend for Private, for actual learning--not test prep--is AC61-21--or whatever the new one of that is. It's 1/5 the cost of Jepp and does a superb job and with no prettification.

 

[acaTerry]

FBO Training

It all depends on the Instructors. Period. 3000+ dual given, I did this at everything from a one-plane FBO to a global airlines training center. I have seen that two things make the rubber meet the road: first, CFI quality. If the CFI runs from his car, says "go preflight I'll be right there" and runs to the car right after the lesson, lose the guy. I've seen both types at FBO's and at major schools. Second, the student. I see so many students that feel that they pay a CFI to do whatever the student wants. As soon as the CFI makes demands that really challenge the student, the student starts "my CFI is mean" or "my CFI is my employee and fails to meet my demands".
The primary and most important thing to remember is the instructor-student relationship. The CFI who fails to instruct, or just sleeps, whatever, is worthless. The student who thinks that the CFI has to obey the students demands is never going to make the airlines. It is an outward sign of being spoiled and lazy. Of course, I reiterate, this is in the case of a good CFI being firm with standards. Sometimes a student has a point, but overall how can a student pilot call the shots when they have little or no idea of anything. This is why they are a student-----to learn.
Don't be fooled by a big name in a school. Some of the big names are poor at preparing a pilot. It comes down to your CFI, plain and simple. I always demanded higher standards of my students. PTS is nice, but I refuse to train for a checkride. Look at the PTS as a minimum, not a goal. Some of my students thought I was a bit hard, but in 3000+ as a CFI, only one ever failed a checkride and I can sleep at night knowing that I didn't unleash a pilot out there who is likely to kill themself in a plane one day.
All in all, look at individual CFI's not where they work. Some of the best CFIs out there are scrubbing floors while waiting for a student to come ask about lessons.....

 

[172driver]

I second that opinion. I received some incredibly strong PPL training at a very small and rural FBO. I have received both good and bad at a 141 flight academy. The academy, however, will generally hold you to much higher standards...especially on the knowledge side. Sometimes I wonder what the examiners out in the world are thinking when they sign the tickets of some of these guys...not to mention their CFI's. I once had a commercial student who had never seen nor heard of a FAR/AIM or a sectional chart!!!

 

[Pipeliner606]

Speaking as a pilot who has recieved training at both a "quality" 141 School, and a small part 61 FBO, I can tell you that bigger is NOT always better. I see 141 students all the time at different airports where I stop who dont even have a clue about how to manage fuel on a cross country trip. I see these students who are being given instruction by more "students" who have gotten their CFI at the same school. These instructors have MAYBE 350 hours, and still have wet ink on their tickets. I'm not saying they are not good instructors, I am saying they are not "experienced" instructors. When I went back to school to do my instrument and multi-engine ratings, I already had around 1600 hours of time flying ag planes. I had twice as many hours as 90% of the instructors at the school I attended. It is hard for a 1600 hour commercial rated pilot to take instruction from a 21 year old college sophomore with 350 hours and a CFI ticket. There is a big difference in someone who has a CFI, and someone who can "instruct". There is only one way to gain experience, and that is by gaining hours in the air. True, a 141 school is much more structured in it's training programs. BUT, with that structure comes increased cost, increased down time waiting for an airplane because of too many students per instructor, etc., etc. There are several "fly by night" 141 operations out there also, so dont assume that just because a small FBO offers only part 61 training, that it isnt quality flight instruction. You just have to be aware of the type training you are looking for, look around, ask questions, and compare. It's not rocket science to find good flight training at a part 61 operation.

 

[Vardog]

FBO Flight Training

The only experience that I have is FBO flight training. It is the only type that allows the flexebility that I need to train and still work.
I feel very fortunate to have a flight instructor that is great. I would not say that he is the best teacher out there for he is the only one that I have ever trained with, but he shares a quality that every great teacher has. He loves the subject and is passionate about it.
Each and every time he has made a mistake he tells me about it, like one time he began his take off role in a 152 downwind. He aborted that takeoff but allowed me to benefit from his mistake.

 

[GooodLaaa]

DMSpilot.....you have no idea.
I have trained Part 61 and 141 (141 Private-Comm Multi). I have taught 61 and 141. To say people training 141 are not being taught to fly is ridiculous. Most Part 141 have very good programs(maybe why the FAA gives them a break on hour requirements, huh?) By the way, yes the instructor is there to tell you that you are 100 feet off. If you know you are 100 feet off than why are you not correcting it? The only correct statement which you made is that they (the instructor) should add another comment to as why you are 100 feet off and what you should do in the future to correct your aviation shortcomings. Dont knock 141 til you have experienced a good program. If you're in the Daytona area I suggest ERAU or Wrightway, both programs I am a product of and I have experienced with great success.


P.S. Pipeliner...you hit it on the head with your comments.