Pro/Cons of ATP?

[mcjohn]

What do people not like about ATP? I had a bad experience going to one of their so called "interviews" that cost $100 for the 90 day course. But, other than that the school seems well designed. I wonder why they push the "Airline" thing so much? Why don't they push alliances with cargo carriers or something?
Anyway. I'd love to hear of others people's thoughts toward the nation wide ATP school.

 

[VSUPilot]

There are good and bad pilots that come out of any school. It is simply relative to the amount of effort the student put in when attending "x" flight school as to how much retention a pilot leaves with. However with ATP's ninety day wonder, zero to hero program, students' subject themselves to so much information in a short period of time that it is enevitable to have a high atrition of knowledge.

Put a similar student in a more traditional setting, and they will walk away with a great understanding and ability to apply the information that they learned (not simply memorized).

I know of pilots, good pilots, that attended ATP and said that they studied there a$$ off to retain the slightest bit of information. I know of others that have no flying job, no prospects, and $30-40 K in loans. Pretty much all those unfortunate people have is a really expensive piece of plastic in their wallet.

ATP's students become their instructors, so the cycle continues. Maybe they push the regionals so that their students may get the chance to learn from a pilot with a little experience for the first time in their life.

 

[-Xavier-]

I would certainly agree its geared towards getting your licenses fast as possible. I go to a Part 141 school and a guy I met up here got his PPL through a fast-track program through an FBO and was almost done with his IR. Lets just say, when I was half way done with my PPL ground school and instruction I knew more than he did about PPL and Instruments.

If you have a lot of cash in the bank and don't care about going to a university and getting a degree and putting that on your resume, then go ahead.

 

[chignutsak]

ATP will get you the ratings in the period of time promised. Given the accelerated nature of the training, all they have time for is to gouge you up for a checkride with one of their handpicked examiners. I found the 90 day program to be very stressful in the sense that I didn't feel ready at most of my checkrides. The commercial single and CFI ASEL addons were especially uncomfortable for me in this regard. They only gave you a few hours of prep and then poof, off to the ride. If you bust, oh well, here's a coupla more hours, then poof, off to the recheck. Having said that, they took their time with the instrument training, which was excellent. This part of the program was over 30 days. I felt very prepared for that ride. Even better was the x-c phase where you and another student pair up (with no instructor) and fly Seminoles all over the country. This was the best part of the program for me; I really learned a tremendous amount about radio and IFR procedures. Occasionally I was pressured to fly instead of squawk, but stick to your guns and they always back off. Remember that YOU are the customer.

Just remember like anything else in life you learn more yourself, instead of having it spoonfed to you. They get you ready for the ride; what you learn above and beyond that is up to you.

 

[mcjohn]

Occasionally I was pressured to fly instead of squawk, but stick to your guns and they always back off. Remember that YOU are the customer.

Please explain. I have no idea what you mean by that. (Never mind, just figured it out - Mx)

BTW, that school isn't affordable anymore. Have you seen their prices lately? But I guess the one thing they offer ,that is hard to put a price on, is how quickly they get it done without cutting too much off the corners.

I kind of believe that getting out there and flying all over the friggin place will build more valuable experience than memorizing all the dam books and staying close to home for the ratings. I have gathered that some skilled pilots have come out of there.

Me personally,
PPL - home town FBO part 141, ~$10,000
all part 61:
Instrument - different home town FBO, ~$9000
Commercial Multi w/ single add on - Arizona rating mill ~$4000
CFI - Tampa/St. Pete KPIE, ~$4500
Time building in between ~$3500

so all that adds up to a little over $30,000
Anyway, ATP cost after 90 day course is around $50,000 if you go to Jacksonville for the PPL 80 hr. thing.
When your done you have something like 250 TT and 100 multi.

So what's better:

My numbers in profile (w/ 7.4 multi PIC) after one year of barley instructing w/ a $33,000 bill (cash out of pocket from tips, no financing)
or
ATP Airline Course grad with 250 TT and 100 multi w/ a $50,000 bill. (and CFI, CFII, MEI)

This one's hard to figure out!

Some input please?

 

[Metro752]

Uh, maybe the part when you are flying a multi engine airplane, but you have all the information so skewed, and they name everything airline this and that, so it's hard to discuss.

You have 7.4 multi hours, no CFII, or Multi Instructor, or Multi Instrument, which would be nice generally to build some multi time, which is exspensive to come by. If you were to buy a few blocks of multi time,

http://www.flyaviator.com/training/100multi.html?

not including taxes, or their $10/hr fuel surcharge.

$14,000 for 100 hours of multi, then another $7000 (for another 50, so $21,000 for 150 hours of multi) to put you on par with the ATP guy, who has like 150 multi, and 135 or so of it PIC along with the instructor ratings.

I agree with the part where you get the Private, at a local FBO and take your time doing it, and probably not do ATP's 90 day, but their as you go deal.

It's a numbers game, and I hope I win the lottery, but I don't buy tickets

 

[mcjohn]

I know that a lot ATP's multi time is on a sim for the 90 day course.
My thinking is to get to the 135 mins instructing then get a single engine cargo gig that will upgrade me to a multi. Flight Express will supposedly do that. Then I'd build mutli PIC time quickly. Probably quicker than someone who gets hired at a regional with 600-800 TT and 100-200 multi who stays on reserve for the first year and only logs SIC at work.
So, maybe for me, 33k and 3 years down the road I'd have 1000-3000 PIC multi.
and maybe for ATP grad that gets on with Regional works less, and builds 1000-3000 SIC multi 3 years later.
But that guy would get upgraded to Captain sooner and have seniority in the airline sooner than I would. I'd be sittin pretty with tons of PIC multi that I never had to buy but I'd be stuck in a cargo world which I know nothing about.

 

[Metro752]

a lot of multi time is on the sim? how?

 

[RefugePilot]

Unfair comparison

First of all your local flight school is very expensive. At the school I work at our PPL costs $5k for 40 hours plus everything else you need. Our 141 inst/com is $15k. There are other schools throughout the country that are comparable in price.

You will certainly get your ratings in 90 days and have all your twin time. However if you do not study very hard and work to retain all you study, you will come out with all your ratings, but not the knowledge to back it up. If you stay to work at ATP you can build more time as an MEI and get where you need to go. If you go to another school you will be stuck in a single engine, fixed gear airplane for about a year, before you get the seniority to fly the twin. You will probably feel slighted as you have a logbook full of twin time but the other instructors who have spent a year or more getting to where they are will know more than you managed to absorb in 90 days.

No matter how much twin time you have upon graduation you are a year or 2 away from being higherable. You need at least a 1000 hours or 1200 hours total time before you can get a real job in aviation. Expect to make around $10k a year for your first year as a flight instructor if you are lucky. Then $20k/year in your first real job. Be cautious before you go 30K in debt. As someone else said there are plenty of unhireable pilots with 30K of loans.

Good Luck

 

[mcjohn]

a lot of multi time is on the sim? how?

If I remember correctly, the 90 day course has too much of the instrument training on a sim. They bill you as if you're going to fly the planes for that price. So when you divide it by the time you get it makes sense. Back then it broke down to be about $200 an hour but once I realized how much time you spend on a crappy lower end sim I realized that this is where the school is raking it in!

 

[Slice121]

www.prairieairsevice.com, Great training and affordable too...

 

[chignutsak]

Ibut once I realized how much time you spend on a crappy lower end sim I realized that this is where the school is raking it in!

Actually, where they rake it in is the x-c phase. (Two guys are logging multi at once.) Spending time in a crappy sim is not unusual in any instrument training program. There's no point flying in the real airplane until you've mastered it in the sim anyways. I was allowed unlimited time in the sim while I was there, which was invaluable in my training. You will graduate the 90 day program with about 140 hours actual multi (counting the Citation ride).