Private Pilot sign off

[Want2FlyAgain]

I have student in Part 61 training that flew with another instructor at a different airport and received an endorsement from that instructor to fly from that airport to two other airports. Then my student took off from that airport and did not fly to the other airports, but flew back to our home base airport where I gave him his solo and 90day sign off from. The regs seem clear...this is not legal. Any thoughts.

In addition. He wants to take his check ride in an aircraft with a inop DG. I will not sign him off...knowing that this is the condition of the aircraft. The DPE says he will conduct the checkride with a broken DG. The PTS says that you should provide an aircraft in a condition to perform all of the areas of operation.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I haven't seen the endorsements, but if the student was signed off for an cross country from A-B-C and went to D instead, it was definitely unauthorized.

On the DG issue, assuming the removal/deactivation/placarding requirements of 91.213(d) are met, there's no legal reason not to use it. Remember that 91.205 doesn't require it for VFR day operations and there are airplanes flying around without them.

I can't think of a PTS task that can't be done without a DG.

There is a practical issue though. Is your student prepared to do the tasks that have 10º heading tolerances (especially the turns to heading portion of instrument reference flight) relying only on the magnetic compass?

 

[Want2FlyAgain]

Thanks for the input. I agree.

 

[bobbysamd]

Unauthorized airports

That actually happened to me while I worked for MAPD. I had a real gung-ho student who pushed very hard to finish his flight course. He was late coming back for his first cross-country. I signed him off for his second, specifying which airports. I told him that if the wx was bad at his destination that he should just come back. Well, guess what? It was bad, but did he just come back?? Noooooooo. He landed at an airport for which I did not sign him off to land and was not authorized by the school!! He was late, and made a bad landing to boot. He told me what happened.

I was furious. I could not unring that bell. Since he was riding on my signoffs I had to CYA, so I filed a NASA report.

Now, as Paul Harvey says, the rest of the story. Mesa hired this young man and I believe he upgraded to Captain.

 

[Want2FlyAgain]

Wow. Thanks for the reply.

 

[nosehair]

Bobbysamd, you say he was "riding on your sign-off." Your sign-off only says he has been trained according to 61.93, and you consider his planning ok and so forth. It does NOT mean if he violates a reg, you are responsible. Where does this come from? Too many instructors are fearful of this. Documentation is necessary in case the student lies and says you didn' t teach him whatever the nature of the violation is, but as long as you have logged ground and flight instruction in all areas of operation as required by regulation, your legal responsibility ends there.
Now, as a practical matter, and to teach the concept of ALTERNATE PLANNING, I always discuss the probable/possible alternate airports to go to IN CASE some situation arises to preclude a landing at the desired destination airport, so the student can land and log the cross-country. He is flying $everal hour$ on this trip. You gonna make him turn around and come back without landing? No way. Plan some alternatives, and put them in the planning sign-off. He doesn't have to land there - just gives him the option. OK?

 

[bobbysamd]

Signoffs

Bobbysamd, you say he was "riding on your sign-off." Your sign-off only says he has been trained according to 61.93, and you consider his planning ok and so forth . . . . [A]s long as you have logged ground and flight instruction in all areas of operation as required by regulation, your legal responsibility ends there.

Guaranteed, if the student screws it, FSDO will yank the CFI into its office and hold the instructor responsible for the student's actions. FSDO will give the instructor the third degree about the incident and will not cut the instructor a break. FSDO will find that the instructor did not exert proper supervision over the student, even though the student was cowboy for a day.

Why is it, then, that there is a procedure in which you can renege a student signoff? By virtue of his/her signoffs, a student's instructor is certifying that the student is safe and qualified to make safe and responsible training flights.

I did not authorize my student to land at the airport at which he landed. Ergo, what he did was unauthorized, and with my signoffs on his student certificate and in his logbook. Until a student passes his/her Private, he is a student pilot and is tied to his/her instructor. The instructor is directing the student's training, which means that he/she d@mn well better do what he is told. Moreover, an instructor will still be held accountable if a student-now-pilot is involved in some accident. That is a situation where proper documentation will prove that the instructor provided the proper ground and flight training pursuant to regs. But having proven that you've provided proper ground and flight instruction won't necessarily be a complete defense against liability. That's one reason why advice is given that instructors carry good professional liability insurance.

The long and short of it is my student did not do what I directed him to do. He acted in contravention of school policy. His alternate airport was from where he departed.

 

[flyingwildfires]

Student pilot does his own thing...

Wow...

he is so lucky he didn't taxi in to find me waiting... it wouldn't have been a pretty sight.

 

[bobbysamd]

Follow the program

he is so lucky he didn't taxi in to find me waiting... it wouldn't have been a pretty sight.

I dropped him one grade because of this incident and because of his earlier cross-country when he came back late for no good reason.

 

[flyingwildfires]

Your student...

Glad to hear that... not to be a hardass, but it comes down to the basic point of whether he has the respect for both the rules of the game, and also your certificate, because, like you pointed out earlier, he is TIED TO YOU. It's been a long time since I instructed, and I didn't get to do it for that long, but I loved it. It was hard and yes, rewarding, and I got to fly with the other instructors' "hard" students. I got to re-evaluate the one who pranged a nosewheel by landing RIGHT ON it, the one who had trouble getting into the manuals until I finally realized he was dyslexic, etc., etc. It was one of the best learning experiences I have ever had in my life. Probably the biggest surprise of all was discovering there were plenty of people trying to learn to fly who didn't even LIKE it -- they just felt it was what they needed to do, for a myriad of reasons -- and I was stunned. It had never occurred to me that people would go through all this, and not love it like I did. It was an eye-opener... and explains a lot I have seen, then and now.

I enjoy your posts.....