Pressure from Dispatch. Normal?

[mrnolmts]

Scenario: Plane arrives 1 hour after scheduled departure time, and there is a crew swap. Apparently there is a write-up of some sort on the inbound leg, because the plane just sits and sits. Maybe it's the same write-up that caused the inbound delay, I don't know, and I guess it doesn't matter.
Eventually, the gate makes an announcement that the flight is canceled, and the pax are getting reaccomodated. Shortly thereafter, I learn that it's the Captain who "doesn't want to go", and made the decision. However, apparently Dispatch is trying to convince him to go, so the flight might go anyway. Oh, how familiar that sounds! However, I actually thought you guys at the majors didn't have to deal with these kinds of "encroachments" on your authority.
So I'm curious: Is this as common with you guys as it is at the Regional level, or did I simply run into a fluke?
PS: I don't know whether or not the flight actually left. I'm just surprised at the notion of Dispatch questioning Captain's authority even at the major level.

 

[AA717driver]

What dispatch wants is irrelevant. The Capt. is the final authority. In the past, I've had mx try to "sell" me an airplane but never dispatch. TC

 

[accinelli]

Scenario: Plane arrives 1 hour after scheduled departure time, and there is a crew swap. Apparently there is a write-up of some sort on the inbound leg, because the plane just sits and sits. Maybe it's the same write-up that caused the inbound delay, I don't know, and I guess it doesn't matter.
Eventually, the gate makes an announcement that the flight is canceled, and the pax are getting reaccomodated. Shortly thereafter, I learn that it's the Captain who "doesn't want to go", and made the decision. However, apparently Dispatch is trying to convince him to go, so the flight might go anyway. Oh, how familiar that sounds! However, I actually thought you guys at the majors didn't have to deal with these kinds of "encroachments" on your authority.
So I'm curious: Is this as common with you guys as it is at the Regional level, or did I simply run into a fluke?
PS: I don't know whether or not the flight actually left. I'm just surprised at the notion of Dispatch questioning Captain's authority even at the major level.

You'd be surprised what some pilots try to pull. I've flown with my share of morons.

 

[RJAA]

It seems like you were a pax or bystander so I am not sure if you have all the details of what was actually happening, but just remember we all deal with pressures from up above including the dispatchers. This is especially true at regional levels where the big daddys wants the completion factor that affects the bottom line. In many occasions, the dispatchers also must answer why the flight could/would/should not operate to their management team. We all operate in less than favorable conditions everyday somewhere. I would agree that a dispatcher should never be that used car salesman. Dispatchers should just produce releases thats safe and legal and back it up with facts. That is all I try to do really during the flight planning stage of my duty. If the captain wants further explaination, then I would give it to them and I would tell him to go, otherwise I wouldn't have sent the release. If the captain does not agree, then I would ask them "How can we make this work?" If we can't make it work then I would ask the captain to call the chief pilot. Then I move on. It's just out of my hands at that point. Sometimes I agree and sometime I don't. I have also been tried to be convinced by the Captains so they don't have to take the heat, just so they can say his/her dispatcher agreed with them. In those circumstances, the captain, as the final authority, should answer alone why the flight didn't operate.

 

[Checknsix]

Know what the difference is between a dispatcher and a pilot?

If the pilot makes a mistake, the pilot dies. If the dispatcher makes a mistake, the pilot still dies.

 

[RJAA]

Know what the difference is between a dispatcher and a pilot?

If the pilot makes a mistake, the pilot dies. If the dispatcher makes a mistake, the pilot still dies.

As the final authority, you do sign the release to make sure there are no mistakes made by the dispatcher don't you? and address all of the safety concerns? and that it was acceptable to you prior to departure? What's the point of the above statement?

 

[mrnolmts]

Well, I guess my whole point was that if the Captain feels it is not safe to operate a flight, and can tell you "this is why", Dispatch should simply accept that fact, and not try to "convince" the Captain it's ok to go. I've heard the "but the previous Captain was ok with it, why aren't you?" line a few times, and I guess I'm just surprised to hear the same is going on at the major level.
I'm sure there are a few "bad apples" out there that have no care for the passengers or their company, and have no qualms about stranding a load of passengers, but I'd like to think that the vast majority of us are professionals, who realize we have a job to do, who wants to keep the airline running, and who will make sound judgments regarding whether or not an aircraft is safe for flight. So why question it?

 

[b747dogg]

I've heard the "but the previous Captain was ok with it, why aren't you?" line a few times, and I guess I'm just surprised to hear the same is going on at the major level

Because the other Captain is a dumb a$$. All you have to do is have a little back bone. As with everything in life, you can only be pushed as far as you let someone push you.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Know what the difference is between a dispatcher and a pilot?

If the pilot makes a mistake, the pilot dies. If the dispatcher makes a mistake, the pilot still dies.

As the final authority, you do sign the release to make sure there are no mistakes made by the dispatcher don't you? and address all of the safety concerns? and that it was acceptable to you prior to departure? What's the point of the above statement?

The key phrase in the dispatcher-PIC relationship is "jointly responsible". I'm here to cover your butt, and any assistance in covering my butt is appreciated. Together, we make the operation run as safely and efficiently as possible.

Sure, if the dispatcher makes a mistake...the pilot could die. However, the pilot's mistake above all in such an instance would be exactly what RJAA states here. If the captain is the final authority above all (which I agree that he is, no argument there), then that release needs to be double checked...no matter how good the dispatcher, we make mistakes. Same as any good pilot.

I might push on a crew that obviously just doesn't want to go...be it because they want to stay in that city and chase that nice piece of hot F/A tail that just got off of the inbound leg or because they don't want to take something as simple as some indication light that is on the fritz, but MEL'd nonetheless (it never ceases to amaze me that a some members of a group of people that have spent their entire lives training to fly want to do anything BUT fly...I understand if you're running on reduced rest on a long duty day...but when you're on day one of a 3 day and you're already trying to not fly?).

I CAN tell you with certainty that I've never pushed on a crew to take an a flight where, based on the info I had, I felt the airplane or the conditions were unsafe. If your dispatchers are pressuring you to do something unsafe, maybe they need to be reminded of American Airlines 1420 in Little Rock back in '99.


(if any of this makes no sense, I apologize...it's freakin' early...)

 

[Huck]

Captains are the grownups.

 

[XPOO]

I'm not sure which airline you are talking about, however I do know what airline you AREN'T talking about. That being said, I know where I work, we never pressure anyone into doing anything. We may get a little upset for the extra work it causes us, and the heat we take from our supervisors and outstations.

If the dispatcher and the pilot cannot come to tems, the scenario breaks down in one of three ways. First scenario, dispatcher legally dispatches flight and the PIC says he refuses, we transfer that PIC to the MOD who makes the final decision. If the dispatcher won't send a release, then the PIC is SOL and the flight is cancelled. If the dispatcher and the PIC both agree to fly or not fly, then the appropriate actions are carried out.

It's all about CYA in this business and is not meant as a means to degrade the PIC or his/her authority.

Finally, I hope I used enough acronyms to get my point across. haha

 

[Bad-Andy]

Because the other Captain is a dumb a$$. All you have to do is have a little back bone. As with everything in life, you can only be pushed as far as you let someone push you.

That's quite an assumptive statement, that the other Captain was a dumb a$$. I have to agree that sometimes that is indeed the case -- the other guy is greedy, wants the overs, wants to get home, etc-- and will fly a broke plane. In that case, you're right, have a spine and make your own decision. But, what about the other half the time when the other guy is right and the second Captain is the dumb a$$? I personally witnessed this on multiple occasions at a previous regional job. A dumb a$$ new Captain jumped up and down, and ranted and raved about the dumb a$$ before him that flew the broken POS, only to find out that, oooops it isn't really broken, he just didn't know how to use it. (One went so far as to turn in several crews prior to him to the FAA. When the FAA called and looked into it, they were shown the passage in the MEL book that made it a legal -and safe, since it was an emergency exit row seatbelt thus MELing the seat- MEL...)

So, without knowing the whole situation, I would say that any speculation on the majors board on whether they were pushed by dispatch, or the Captain just didn't want to fly his last turn of the 4 day, is a waste of time and energy...

 

[ptarmigan]

Because the other Captain is a dumb a$$. All you have to do is have a little back bone. As with everything in life, you can only be pushed as far as you let someone push you.

I have taken an airplane that a previous capt wouldn't, and also turned down airplanes that another capt would take. In the former case, the capt was an a&p and thought because he knew about working on his Cessna that meant he was smarter than the mechanic who was working for my airline. He wasn't, he was like the student pilot who writes your CEO because he was riding in the back and noticed you didn't do a "runup" in your jet before you departed!

On the latter case the wrong deferral was used, and that had been missed by the previous crew.

You have to judge it for yourself, based on your own knowledge. Don't assume just because someone turns it down that they have "more backbone", they may just not have the big picture (being nice)!

 

[NuGuy]

What dispatch wants is irrelevant. The Capt. is the final authority.

That need's to be on a F'in plaque bolted to the cockpit wall.

But try to tell that to the kids who thing that after 1500 hours, you've learned all you need to.

Nu

 

[XPOO]

That need's to be on a F'in plaque bolted to the cockpit wall.

But try to tell that to the kids who thing that after 1500 hours, you've learned all you need to.

Nu

Just a little insight here, but sure as we can replace a pilot with one that will take a flight, we can also assign the release to a dispatcher who has no problem releasing the flight. Now, doesn't that make you feel safer?

 

[WalterSobchak]

.....

Nevermind

 

[Itsallsogood]

Is it " Aircraft Flown" or " Aircraft Flown on?"

 

[Occam's Razor]

"Pressure" from Dispatch?

I suppose...but only if you view others on the same team offering differing information and analysis as "pressure".

Captain's ain't God. Heck...even God is barely a "god" these days! (I play one quick game of "doctor" with Cathy Wiley as a kid...and he spanks my beloved Vikings for my entire lifetime! It's not just me. Ask Moses about the Big Guy's lifetime bans...)

Secure authority means you don't have to take every dissenting opinion as "pressure".

Some can handle that...some can't.

 

[Draginass]

Fortunately, these disagreements are few and far between. However, when they do come up, my reasoning process is:

1. I don't work for the dispatcher. I work for the Chief Pilot.

2. If I do have doubts about something, I'll ask the dispatcher:

"Explain to me in detail why it's a good idea for me to take this airplane."

Stuff like "It's got to be in Cleveland tonight" or "We're really stacked up and we need to clear out some pax" aren't good reasons. Good reasons would be that the aircraft is clearly airworthy and the weather meets regs. Past that, we can get into the Captain's judgement catagory.

 

[bubbers44]

Usually everyone is on the same page and trying to help each other out. We are talking about two situations a year maybe where the PIC needs to make changes to ensure the outcome of his flight. No ego battle should ever occur. Just do what is right and everything will be fine.

 

[mrnolmts]

...Stuff like "It's got to be in Cleveland tonight" or "We're really stacked up and we need to clear out some pax" aren't good reasons...

How about the more subtle ones, like
"Sure someone reported severe turbulence, but that was 1/2 hour ago. I'm sure it's better now..." or
"We don't anticipate any weather/icing enroute, so you're good to go" (Radar or Anti/De-ice equipment MEL'd), or
"Well, ATC don't know our definition of a wet runway..."
or the previous "What's your problem? The previous Captain flew it like that without any complaints"
I'm sure there are more out there. The "gray" areas... the kind where if you get caught up in an FAA ordeal, it's your ticket on the line.

 

[ackattacker]

I've never felt that mx or dispatch had any way to pressure me... they may try, but I don't really answer to them. Just sending a release is not pressure if you've got any stones at all.

Now if the C.P. or D.O. calls me up and says go that's a different story. But there's always 1-866-TELL-FAA

 

[Ty Webb]

My personal favorite:

Dispatcher: (seeing my junior seniority number, and trying to intimidate): "How long have you been a captain, Captain?"

Me: (tired and p.o.'d): "All my f#$%ing life. . . . How long have you been a Captain?"

Silence . . . . . .


Set, match, game.

 

[Flashbang]

Good one, Ty!