Pre-Solo Training

[mnixon]

Per the pre solo training requirements, you must do training on go arounds. How far do you have to bring them down and initiate a go around to be legal. I might be in some crap because my student screwed up a plane while trying to land on his initial solo. He didnt initiate a go around on a ballooner and smashed the nose in. When my CP asked how far I had ever brought him down while doing a go around, i said around 50 ft. He said I might have busted regs by not bringing him down far enough. Just wondering what you guys think.

 

[midlifeflyer]

First of all, you didn't "bust any regs". There are no regs about how far down a go-around is.

But, as I'm sure you know, whenever a student pilot has an incident, the CFI and the instruction will be looked at.

When discussing go-arounds 8083-3, the Airplane Flying Handbook, points out

==============================
The need to discontinue an approach or landing may arise at any point in the approach or landing phase. Obviously, the most critical go-around landing is the one that is started when very close to the ground. Therefore, it is important that the earlier an unsafe situation is recognized, the safer the go-around/rejected landing will be.
==============================

So, in the instructional part of it's investigation, IMO the FAA is likely to look at whether you taught how to go-around during the "most critical stage" and how well the student understood that a go-around should be initiated as soon as possible. I'd also guess that they will look specifically at go-arounds from a balloon since that's a pretty common scenario and one specifically covered in 8083-3.

 

[JRSLim]

What midlife said. Doesn't matter 'where' you taught him how to do a go around, just that you told him when and under what circumstances. I teach go-arounds and stress that the go-around is always an option - and should be used for any reason a landing isn't looking right. Anything from getting too low on airspeed during final to balooning in the flare. I start that when we are doing dual by telling the student to make the choice anytime they feel necessary - and watch that they do.

Hope this helps

By the way Don't think this is the first time this sort of thing has happened before, I've seen prop strikes and bent wing from solo incidents, and as long as all of your students training was done correctly, you'll probably be ok.

 

[nosehair]

OK, mnixon, Sir. With all due respect to you as a Flight Instructor, I must tell you that if all you ever did on go-arounds was from 50 feet, you have done yourself and your student a great disservice, and could have set him up for an even worse event. You must, repeat, MUST do some go-arounds from a ballon, a bounce, a sudden swerve as in a cross-wind during landing. Go-arounds from 50 feet are nothing! Recovering to a go-around from a bad flare or landing is everything.

This just comes from common sense. But, of course, the FAA can't bust you on not usung common sense, so they can find "regulations" which support the obvious violation. Such as:
FAR 61.87(c)(2) "Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section..."
FAR 61.87 Limitations on flight instructors authorizing solo flight.
(1) No instructor may authorize a student pilot to perform a solo flight unless that instructor has- (ii) Determined that the student is proficient in the maneuvers and procedures prescribed in this section."
FAR 61.87 (d)(3)Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(14) Slips to a landing; (15) Go-arounds.

Look at page 8-3 in the Airplane Flying handbook. Chapter 8 - Faulty Approaches and landings. Balloning during roundout. When balloning i excessive, it is best to EXECUTE A GO-AROUND IMMEDIATELY; DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SALVAGE THE LANDING.
Those are not my caps, they are in the book.
You should have taught him everything in the book.

Now, I know how it is. You were probably badly trained. You were not taught all the techniques you should have in your quest to get your training, but you wer lucky, and that is the chain that must be broken. Don't pass on your instructor's mistakes to your student. Be as certain as you can about a student's ability to handle the airplane in the runway environment before you send him alone.

 

[mnixon]

Hey man, I don't care if you think I screwed up. That's cool because it's your opinion. But who in the hell do you think you are, oh mighty one, to say that I was trained badly, without you knowing anything about me? I asked a simple question and I appreciated your response, until you threw that little remark in there.

 

[JRSLim]

I agree.
Even the best instructors can have a student get into trouble. We do the best we can, but when the banana hits the fan on the unsuspecting student, sometimes their limited experience just doesn't do the right thing, even when they have been properly instructed and prepped. Only you, knowing what you know, can look at the situation and say 'I could have/should have done this or that', or conversely, know that you did all you could--But here is where you must be honest with yourself.

 

[HMR]

For any other instructors reading this thread. Don't forget to log go-arounds in you student's AND your logbook as proof you did the training. Even if you just do one during a lesson, log it in both books. Make it clear to students that they can go-around until they're out of gas. There's no reason to land if it doesn't look right. Remember: CYA.

 

[DenverDude2002]

You must, repeat, MUST do some go-arounds from a ballon, a bounce, a sudden swerve as in a cross-wind during landing. Go-arounds from 50 feet are nothing!

Both my CFI and our head CFI do not require these. To me this just sounds insane. I have a feeling if a student managed to mess up one this low to the ground the CFI wouldnt have much if any time to recover. I did all of mine from 50+ feet.

And before you go slamming my CFI's, our school is under strict part 141 and one of our head CFI's is check ride examiner for the FAA with over 10,000 hours so I think they know what they are doing.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Both my CFI and our head CFI do not require these.

On the other hand, there are head CFIs who purposely induce a balloon during stage checks just to make sure the student knows exactly what to do.

 

[nosehair]

Hey man, I don't care if you think I screwed up. That's cool because it's your opinion. But who in the hell do you think you are, oh mighty one, to say that I was trained badly, without you knowing anything about me? I asked a simple question and I appreciated your response, until you threw that little remark in there.

OK, Sir, I apologize for badly using the term "trained badly". I did not mean it in a negative way, (although I can see how it could be taken that way) but I meant it to be an understanding of your not properly training your student. And that may also be a wrong evaluation if I have wriong or incomplete information. I am saying this based on your statement that you did not do bad landing recoveries to a go-around. Did you?

In the process of teaching a student to land the airplane, most normal students will baloon, bounce, flare too high/low, get cross-ways, etc. so that they are forced by nature to go-around. If your student is "lucky" and doesn't ever get into these situations, you have to "simulate" them, so that he can become practiced in pitch-power/elevator-throttle/rudder control that occurs in situations which are common sense, but also outlined in the Airplane Flying Handbook FAA-H-8083-3 (Formally Flight Training Handbook)

So, your learning process during your initial learning-to-land may have shown your flight instructor that you could respond to bad landings properly without "simulating". We don't know, do we?

But now, your training as a flight instructor should have included recoveries from bad landings as outlined in Chapter 8.

I'm surprised, but not shocked, to read some other posts which think that a 50 foot go-around is sufficient.

Have you no grasp on reality? I'm sadly aware that Examiners these days hardly ever impose the go-around on pilot applicants. Therefore, if they don't have to do it on the check-ride, it doesn't matter.

There are high-statistic numbers on accidents from go-arounds, and they ain't from 50 feet - they are from a bounce, a swerve, a baloon, etc. Especially students!!

Come on, you guys, think about it!