Pre-Solo signoff

ToiletDuck

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I have a small situation I am thinking about while studying for my CFI. Here it is.

You are a CFI at a flight school with multiple CFI's. One day this student (pre-private) walks in with all his planning done for his first solo X-C and wants to get a signoff but his instructor isn't in town. However, you are good friends with this CFI and you and him have talked about this student and the other CFI has told you several times how great a student he is. So you decide that you will look over his planning/endorcements and if everything is good then you'll sign him off.

After reviewing his planning and checking the weather you find everything to be top notch. You then open his logbook and see that the first initial X-C was endorsed by the instructor. So you know that the instructor and this student did the X-C together as required and previously discussed everything required about the other airports operations. So you know that you are good to go there.

However while looking you notice that his Presolo signoff for the make/model of aircraft is expired.

My question is. Since you did not actually do the "Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane"[61.87(d)] can you sign this student off with his additional solo signoff that is good for an additional 90 days and then sign him off for the x-c to the other airport?

If this is confusing just let me know I'll try to write it better.

Thanks,
Duck
 

groundpointsix

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When you endorse something, you're saying that you did everything specified by the applicable regulation. In this case, you haven't done the pre-solo requirements with him, why on earth would you sign him off? That said, I'm sure you'll find instructors who will do it and no one will ever catch on. No harm, no foul...until that student wrecks the plane and the feds look to see who signed him off. When they come to you and you explain "oh no, he wasn't really my student, I just signed him off because his real instructor wasn't here," they're not going to buy it. COVER YOUR ASS. You may look like a jerk to the student or your buddy, but if they're decent people, they'll realize you're being a professional.
 

nosehair

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ToiletDuck said:
I have a small situation I am thinking about while studying for my CFI.
I'm hoping you are simulating a situation for the purpose of learning. Look at 61.87(n) "Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight."(2)An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, WHO GAVE THE TRAINING within the 90 days preceding the flight.

Whaddaya think?
 

ToiletDuck

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nosehair said:
I'm hoping you are simulating a situation for the purpose of learning.
No worries I am. I'm just trying to think of everything. The chief flight instructor told asked me "if a student walks up with X-C planning and you open his logbook and you see the initial X-C was done and his endorcements are current, can you sign him off?" It was more of a question of legalities. The answer was yes but it made me think of what if his 90 day solo was expired. Not to actually do it but I know sometimes the feds ask questions like this.
 

NoPax

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A very similar situation happened at a flight school I worked at...a student was legally signed off for the airplane M/M and crosscountry etc. However, due to MX the flight was rescheduled another day, by which time the 90 day endorsement had run out by maybe 2 days. (count the days carefully, it aint 3 calander months)

I signed the student off for the cross country (planning and prep) after I explained to the student the situation, showed the student the regs, and then called the student's instructor, who wrote the endorsement, faxed it and I stapled it to the student's logbook - caused maybe 45 minutes delay, but ultimatly left a good impression.
 

100LL... Again!

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NoPax said:
A very similar situation happened at a flight school I worked at...a student was legally signed off for the airplane M/M and crosscountry etc. However, due to MX the flight was rescheduled another day, by which time the 90 day endorsement had run out by maybe 2 days. (count the days carefully, it aint 3 calander months)

I signed the student off for the cross country (planning and prep) after I explained to the student the situation, showed the student the regs, and then called the student's instructor, who wrote the endorsement, faxed it and I stapled it to the student's logbook - caused maybe 45 minutes delay, but ultimatly left a good impression.
THAT is how a true professional operates. Too many people have no problem cutting corners because they feel bad for the student. or do not want to cause a delay, or whatever. Do it right no matter how long it takes.
 

NYCPilot

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I've been in a situation like that before. The student's regular instructor was on vacation and wouldnt be back in time for the student to solo on the day he planned to fly as the endorsement was about to expire. He kept pleading with me explaining how he was proficient and all. We went up and reviewed a few of the maneuvers but since we did not cover all that is required in the time allotted for this particular training flight, I stated numerous times that I would not give him the endorsement. He flew well enough, but since I legally was responsible, I just declined him. Eventually his instructor came back and gave him the extended endorsement.

It's good to let students know that they should take regs. seriously, and that cheating or corner cutting isnt something that should be used in aviation. Set a strict example with students and they'll adopt that attitude in thier future flying. Don't budge from what you feel is correct.

I find that a lot of students whine when they think they're ready for solo or their checkride. Don't sign them off for either until you have absolute confidence in them. Always hold your students performance to the highest standards, even if it makes you unfavorable to them for the moment. One day they will look back, understand why and appreciate it.

Also, in terms of the situation you proposed, if the student had a current make and model endorsement in the logbook, you of course could review the planning and such and endorse the x-ctry. If by some chance the student did have an accident or violation, it would still be the student's instructors fault, not yours, even though you reviewed the planning.
 

PC12Cowboy

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Regulations are clear...and to the letter....you didnt fly with him/her so you can't sign
 

mattpilot

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nosehair said:
I'm hoping you are simulating a situation for the purpose of learning. Look at 61.87(n) "Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight."(2)An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, WHO GAVE THE TRAINING within the 90 days preceding the flight.

Whaddaya think?
In addition to 61.87(n), i'd also take a look at 61.87(p)(1).

Clear as mud :)
 

KigAir

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ToiletDuck said:
However while looking you notice that his Presolo signoff for the make/model of aircraft is expired.
What happens with a student that is inherited from another CFI who is no longer around?
 

PC12Cowboy

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king air...hmm then I guess You'd have to fly with him first before you re endorse his solo
 

midlifeflyer

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KigAir said:
What happens with a student that is inherited from another CFI who is no longer around?
The rule is the same for each 90-day solo re-endorsement. The original certificate endorsement continues to be valid, but new CFI has to "provide the training" in order to sign the new logbook endorsement.

Don't read too much into "provides the training." It doesn't say "provides the =initial= training." Go through the required tasks and knowledge areas to satisfy yourself that the student can perform them to your solo standards. A mini-checkride should suffice.
 
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