Possible answers to Delta Rumors

[General Lee]

The Delta VP in charge of the new interior overhauls apparently said that the MD-88s are the first planes to get the new interiors, so I guess that would mean they aren't leaving the fleet anytime soon. (?) And, he said the 757s were next to get the new interiors. Also, our new Captain in charge of Pilot Standards stated in the ATL lounge yesterday that the 737-200s would start to leave in 2005 (as the leases expire) and that we would eventually focus on long haul, but NOT dismantle the regular feed. He also said that we are interested in a new 100 seater, but we are still looking at our finances right now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DDpaysoff]

"looking at our finances right now". The helll he is. He would not be out in public if he did.

 

[General Lee]

DDpaysoff,


They know that when they get huge concessions from EVERYONE, then the banks and creditors will help them refinance the NEXT DAY. That is exactly what happened at AA. They were lower in cash (near $1 billion) and had to have the stews vote TWICE before they could get the needed cuts. The only difference with AA and DL is that we have a tad bit more cash than they did at the time, we only have one major union, and we have hundreds of guys willing to bail at a moments notice. Dalpa and Delta have been meeting and a memo released today stated that there was PROGRESS in work rule changes and they are talking closely about the pension stuff. Maybe there will be some J4J talk too.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[P38JLightning]

let's hope so

>>>Dalpa and Delta have been meeting and a memo released today stated that there was PROGRESS in work rule changes and they are talking closely about the pension stuff. Maybe there will be some J4J talk too.


I hope you're right. I even agree with "some J4J talk" just so long as it doesn't shaft the Comair/ASA pilots. Some people think it automaticaly will but I disagree. Funny how the same people who say any J4J or flow through or one company/list discussions are automaticaly flawed because of some examples go on to say the only acceptable solution is an overnight seniority list merger. But these same people say how the TWA pilots got shafted. By that same logic, any list merger should be bad because TWA (and PanAm, etc) were bad, right? You obviously have to judge any proposal based on the merits of the specific proposal.

Delta pilots deserve all new DCI opportunities and I hope they get them, with no super seniority or "slot bidding" or any of that.

As for the creditors I think you are right too, but I can't help but wonder what their take is on the pilots demand that they give back. What corporate CEO, brandy sniffing Harvard mercenary hack woud like to be the subject of some pencil neck analyst (who all wield WAY too much influence IMHO) even implying that some dirt bag labor group, at another company, told him what to do?

Maybe this way, after labor gives first, they can swoop in and make it look like it was all their idea.

As for work rule and pension changes, these are far more important than hourly rates, which will also come down of course. Pilots have to be productive. Look at SWA and JB. All they do is move airplanes and work hard. Delta has done neither (by comparison) and now its time they do. Management must do its part too by simplifying fleet types, but pilots need to fly more hours with less restrictions and the bloated 1960's pension need to be the absolute first thing to go. Maybe simplify the pay rates (either seat/seniority like UPS or widebody, large and small narrowbody like AT) so people don't bounce around for years in training just to get incremental raises.

Lets all hope for a leaner, meaner Delta by the end of the year.

Oh yeah, and brand scope. Whatever that is.

 

[satpak77]

any target date for the concessions to be given/not given? We cant be in a holding pattern till next summer

surely the next 30-60 days we should hear something, no?

 

[peter185]

the bloated 1960's pension need to be the absolute first thing to go


Have fun with your below industry wages for the rest of your life because it is these sort of thoughts that have lead to the current pay scales, which it my opinion are completly pathetic.

 

[flyingitalian]

The Delta VP in charge of the new interior overhauls apparently said that the MD-88s are the first planes to get the new interiors,

Bye Bye--General Lee

Yep, thats what you need new interiors. Geeze how much you paying these guys at the top? What a brain trust you have..... new interiors, boy if only I could have thought of that. When are we going to stand up and say enough is enough. Rome is buring and new interiors is what you are getting? What? Is a brother in law in the new interior business? Maybe a paint job will do it? I bet you could get some lime green 757s cheep....oh forgot you already own those.

Sitting here shaking my head wondering where all the talented management is.

Good luck, we are all going to need it.

 

[General Lee]

I honestly have no idea what they are doing.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Full of LUV]

This is why you are not in charge of marketing, go fly a plane!

Yep, thats what you need new interiors. Geeze how much you paying these guys at the top? What a brain trust you have..... new interiors, boy if only I could have thought of that. When are we going to stand up and say enough is enough. Rome is buring and new interiors is what you are getting? What? Is a brother in law in the new interior business? Maybe a paint job will do it? I bet you could get some lime green 757s cheep....oh forgot you already own those.

Sitting here shaking my head wondering where all the talented management is.

Good luck, we are all going to need it.

Actually, for a company that wants to improve customer service or get premium revenue, this makes great sense. As a consumer, the BIGGEST factor I notice when flying an airline besides if I get where I want to go on time is how clean is the interior of the plane.
Lousy, dirty airplane interior just reeks of a company that is on it's last legs.
97.6% of customers don't know a 737-200 from a 757, all they know is what the seat and area around their seat looks sharp or shoddy.
Also, people treat nicer stuff nicer and crap on crappy stuff, it's been proven that if you keep the place nice, most people will appreciate it and try to do likewise.

 

[flyingitalian]

Actually, for a company that wants to improve customer service or get premium revenue, this makes great sense. As a consumer, the BIGGEST factor I notice when flying an airline besides if I get where I want to go on time is how clean is the interior of the plane.
Lousy, dirty airplane interior just reeks of a company that is on it's last legs.
97.6% of customers don't know a 737-200 from a 757, all they know is what the seat and area around their seat looks sharp or shoddy.
Also, people treat nicer stuff nicer and crap on crappy stuff, it's been proven that if you keep the place nice, most people will appreciate it and try to do likewise.

Thats nice when nothing else is wrong with your company, but for Delta to spend money on interiors is mind boggeling in todays market place. Consumers today want to be treated well, and pay a low price, not sit in a pretty seat. If you are tyring to tweak your product great, spend money on interiors, but on the verge of chap 11....give me a break.

 

[P38JLightning]

pay attention Peter

the bloated 1960's pension need to be the absolute first thing to go


>>>Have fun with your below industry wages for the rest of your life because it is these sort of thoughts that have lead to the current pay scales, which it my opinion are completly pathetic.


I didn't say their pay scales were unsustainable, though I did mention they would be coming down, which is a given. In fact I've argued many times that their pay is sustainable, as long as they are highly productive and you forget about this 60% FAE based of your best, measly 3 years. Sorry, but its those sort of thoughts that have (in part) lead to the current sad state of affairs. The whole "gee let's choke the golden goose til it gives us every last egg" followed by "yeah, and we want that plus 1%!" has resulted in contracts (not pay rates) that are unsustainable.

Comair is very profitable with our 100+/hr 50 seat pay rates and 120/hr 70 seat pay rates. We have some of the lowest costs and highest utilizations of any "regional" (or whatever we're called these days) so we can afford higher pay rates and still be very profitable. Need proof? Look at SkyWest. Almost the same 50 seat pay and work rules (they did put on the red light for 51-99 seat pay, but that's still an extreme minority of their fleet...so far...and therefore not responsibile for their profitability to any significant degree) and they're sitting on, what, almost 400 million in cash! They are making so much they literaly don't know what to spend it on.

Look at SWA. Their top rate is 180-190 or so per hour! And about to go up 12% this year making them the highest 737 pilots on earth (except Delta but we'l see where their rates go) for mostly small 737's! Do I think those rates are sustainable? Of course! Its been prooven.

So it stands to reason there's nothing unsustainable about Widebody captains making 250-300K/yr, but they have to be productive. I do believe the current fantasy "touch it for 3 years and bail" 60% retirement scheme is unsustainable. 3 years? Really? Is that just because that's the military model? Well I doubt in the military you could hang out as a lieutenant for 23 years just to get the good schedule and bid Fleet Admiral for your last 3 years just to boost your pension now could you? And those guys bailing now, after enjoying 3 years of one of, if not the, most unsustainable contracts in aviation history are fine pieces of work. And bailing in mass with little or no notice, well that's just priceless. Sure the company may not be staffing properly, but when you have 600 planes and only 8 777's don't tell me you have to overstaff 500, 1000, 1500 777 and 767-400 Captains, you know, just in case.

So my sort of thoughts are we deserve to be paid a lot of money for what we do, with a lot of days off, but we also should be required to work hard and efficiently for our company to ensure its health and long term viability. You got a problem with that?

Good luck with your turbine time, by the way.

 

[General Lee]

P38,

How many people would you overstaff the 8 777s if you knew all of the Captains were likely to retire at a moments notice (they would on any other plane too---they are the top of the heap with the most years of service and largest lump sum)? It doesn't matter what plane they are on, we have 500 that have over 25 years of service and are elligible for FULL retirement. The other 1000 guys that are over 50 can take their lump sums also, and a lot have 22 years, 24 years, etc... Even the guys with 10 years of service that are over 50 can leave with the lump sum. What would you do? (if you were management or a 777 Capt)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[P38JLightning]

how many would I overstaff?

A reasonable ammount, that's how many. Sorry, but 8 planes doesn't warrant 1500 pilots just to further pad the "touch it and bail" upper crust.

My point is the whole retirement scheme is unsustainable as it stands now. I would blend the pay categories for all widebodies so you wouldn't have this mess to begin with. Remember the DALPA/management spat over the 777 in the first place? Well management caved and got the plane and gave DALPA their rates, and now instead of serving to generate revenue in certain markets, the plane primarily is used to artificialy inflate the earnings of those just about to punch out.

That's what I'm talking about. 280/hr is cool, as long as you work your @ss off and don't shaft the company with asinine schemes like that. The guys with the 3 years are holding a winning lottery ticket saying see ya suckaz!, while the bulk of the group is holding a flaming bag of doggie doo.

Kinda reminds me of management's little "I got mine" parachute. Now you're saying they might have to put those pilots retirements into some kind of bankruptsy proof retirement scheme, just like management, just to avoid a mass grounding of the intl fleet. How is it we got to this point to begin with? Its got to change and change now.

 

[atrdriver]

the bloated 1960's pension need to be the absolute first thing to go
Comair is very profitable with our 100+/hr 50 seat pay rates and 120/hr 70 seat pay rates. We have some of the lowest costs and highest utilizations of any "regional" (or whatever we're called these days) so we can afford higher pay rates and still be very profitable.

Just how many of your Captains are making 100+/hr on a 50 seat RJ? In fact, how many make 90+? Not very many. Your 100+ payrate is for top seniority, of which there aren't very many. Most of your seniority list, like ours, is in the <6 year range.

atrdriver

 

[DL_Infidel]

That's what I'm talking about. 280/hr is cool, as long as you work your @ss off and don't shaft the company with asinine schemes like that. The guys with the 3 years are holding a winning lottery ticket saying see ya suckaz!, while the bulk of the group is holding a flaming bag of doggie doo.

Kinda reminds me of management's little "I got mine" parachute. Now you're saying they might have to put those pilots retirements into some kind of bankruptsy proof retirement scheme, just like management, just to avoid a mass grounding of the intl fleet. How is it we got to this point to begin with? Its got to change and change now.

Your post has a hint of DaveGriffin in it (top 1/3 screwing everyone!) I'm sure you would do the "noble" thing and watch your retirement vanish all for the good of the team and hang out until 60. These guys aren't shafting the company or the remaining pilots. Again, you and your buddies need to focus your venom on mismanagement. As far as productivity, even under our current PWA, management isn't utilizing us properly...we cannot fix everything for them. We just fly planes.

Also, I suspect a portion of our domestic 767 flying will be affected by the early outs as well.


DL_Infidel

 

[General Lee]

P38,


I can understand your "let's be a team" attitude, but what if you were tired and a senior Captain (on whatever plane--could be a senior 737-200 Capt) with more than 25 years and have a possible "gold mine" just waiting for you. If things weren't looking so hot and there was a possiblity of you losing all of it or part of it, wouldn't you go? 25 years down the drain if you miss out by one day. It happened to the USAir guys. Some of them missed out by one day and their future retirement is now $28,000 a year. Wouldn't you bang your head on a wall if that happened to you? Now we have a bunch of pilots who have that option, and you compare them to some management people who have less than 5 years here, not the 25 years they have. Big difference. Also, you tell the 777 Captains that they should "work their a$$es off" for that $280 an hour. Ok, well most of those guys are tired and burned out after 25 years here, and their trips are tiring also (lots of time zones and French wine on the layovers), and you can only do so many transatlantic crossings in a week. Most of them did their time flying 6 legs a day in the old Delta DC-9s or DC-8s. If they want to leave and golf and relax, that is up to them. The problem Delta has is that there are quite a few senior guys that could do that.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sleepy]

The Delta VP in charge of the new interior overhauls apparently said that the MD-88s are the first planes to get the new interiors, so I guess that would mean they aren't leaving the fleet anytime soon. (?) And, he said the 757s were next to get the new interiors. Also, our new Captain in charge of Pilot Standards stated in the ATL lounge yesterday that the 737-200s would start to leave in 2005 (as the leases expire) and that we would eventually focus on long haul, but NOT dismantle the regular feed. He also said that we are interested in a new 100 seater, but we are still looking at our finances right now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I don't know General, it would not be unlike airline management to put new interiors in the MD-80's, then retire them six months later. Or to spend millions on the Song experiment, then can the whole thing. You never know what these airline management people will do, hell they probably don't even know what they are going to do. The one thing that you can count on is that they will all get a big bonus check after you give those concessions.

 

[General Lee]

Sleepy,


No CHIT!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[DaveGriffin]

P38,


I can understand your "let's be a team" attitude, but what if you were tired and a senior Captain (on whatever plane--could be a senior 737-200 Capt) with more than 25 years and have a possible "gold mine" just waiting for you. If things weren't looking so hot and there was a possiblity of you losing all of it or part of it, wouldn't you go? 25 years down the drain if you miss out by one day. It happened to the USAir guys. Some of them missed out by one day and their future retirement is now $28,000 a year. Wouldn't you bang your head on a wall if that happened to you? Now we have a bunch of pilots who have that option, and you compare them to some management people who have less than 5 years here, not the 25 years they have. Big difference. Also, you tell the 777 Captains that they should "work their a$$es off" for that $280 an hour. Ok, well most of those guys are tired and burned out after 25 years here, and their trips are tiring also (lots of time zones and French wine on the layovers), and you can only do so many transatlantic crossings in a week. Most of them did their time flying 6 legs a day in the old Delta DC-9s or DC-8s. If they want to leave and golf and relax, that is up to them. The problem Delta has is that there are quite a few senior guys that could do that.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

OK General Leigh,

You have given your weak sister defense for the senior 500 to LOOT the pension fund, yet I still don't understand why they are any different than Leo.

Now, if you would please, tell me why it is acceptable for the sub $100K pilot and the $200K+ pilot to both be looking at the same 30% haircut? If 1,000 junior pilots are just starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel following furlough, and the seniors are just coming off their best 3 years ever, why shouldn't it be a progressive consession? I know why it won't, but I would still like to hear your excuse anyway.

 

[General Lee]

Davie,


Man alive, you really are bothered by this. There are a lot of things that you and I cannot control in this life, and one of those things is greed. But, would you consider someone taking their hard earned cash that they made over the course of 25 years and retiring early greedy? I don't think so. You are right, a lot of the junior guys got the shaft after 9-11, but unfortunately that is called seniority. You and I may not like that, but it is there. Then the top guys did very well over these last three years---benefiting from the C2K contract and probably not enduring many displacements or furloughs. So, after getting all of those benefits, I WILL NOT FEEL SORRY FOR THEM as they leave and allow the rest of us to move up. They have a choice---leave now and keep their huge lump sums and possible monthly pensions---or stay around for a few more Gatwick layovers with the older than Moses stews--and maybe risk some of that hard earned retirement cash. I can see where you are coming from, and I agree with you mostly---but we cannot control seniority, and we cannot control the "me, me " attitude. All we can do is watch and hope that they leave with their cash and a smile, and then leave us some scraps. Leo Mullin was a different story---he only stayed here for 5 years (?) and got 30 years worth of seniority with his rich pension (besides the $16 million severence). Most of the pilots with 25 years actually flew that long..... There is a difference.


Bye Bye--General Lee