**Please Help: Need right-seat T/O procedures in acft. with NO rudder steering...

[Flying Illini]

Right seat T/O's have been suspended till we can come up with a safe way for the takeoff to be conducted from the right seat (apparently how we have been doing it for the past 16yrs is unsafe now).

I know some of you have made suggestions in my previous post. Thankyou.
What I really need now, are procedures that are a little more detailed for the right seat take-off so that we may practice them and then hopefully implement them.

So, if anyone is willing to help, I would really appreciate this. If you wouldn't mind, please post in as much detail as you are willing to do. Hopefully I will be back to performing t/o's shortly.

Again, this has to be for aircraft with NO "limited nosewheel steering" through the rudder pedals.

Thanks in advance.

FI

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

Man FI, I can't believe your company is pulling this crap! May I make a suggestion? Post your old procedures so we can see them and compare them to what others use... it might lead to some useful advice. I'll post mine in a few minutes.

cc

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

Okay, had to step away from the computer for a moment... sorry. This was a procedure used for the Hawker 800. I think it might be the only aircraft I've flown w/o at least limited nosewheel steering available to the right seat. Most of our procedures/SOPs were in a graphical or tabular format but this is the gist of it:


DEFINITIONS

LH/RH - Pilot Station. Designation of seat position for accomplishment of a given task because of proximity to the respective control/indicator. Regardless of PF or PNF role, the pilot in that seat performs tasks and responds to checklist challenges accordingly. This occurs during the accomplishment or performance of flow patterns.

PF - Pilot Flying. The pilot responsible for controlling the airplane. Performs tasks and responds to checklist challenges.

PNF - Pilot Not Flying. Reads checklist challenges.

PIC - Pilot-in-Command. The pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.


TAKEOFF

PF briefs the PNF prior to taxiing onto the runway. Complete the Line Up Checklist. Hold the brakes and advance the power levers to full forward. The PNF starts timing and states “Power Checked” (at least N1 = Ref-1%). PF calls for “APR Armed,” then releases brakes. The LH Pilot will use the nosewheel steering until the rudder becomes effective (or until 80 KIAS if the PF is the RH Pilot), and the RH Pilot will hold forward pressure on the control yoke. The PNF will call “Airspeed Alive” and “80 Knots.” At 80 Knots the LH Pilot will command “My Yoke” and will shift his hand from the nosewheel steering to the yoke. If the RH Pilot is making the takeoff then he will command “My Aircraft” at which time the LH Pilot will release the nosewheel steering. Until the “80 Knot” call an aborted takeoff will be performed by the LH Pilot, and after 80 Knots and before V1 the PF will perform the abort. During all takeoffs the PF keeps his hand on the power levers until the PNF calls “V1/Vr” at which time both hands may be placed on the yoke. The PNF monitors the power levers during the remainder of the takeoff. The PF will rotate to a 12 degree nose-high pitch attitude.


Had to step away again... **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** phones. Where was I? Well, that's basically the procedure to get you in the air. And, as I remember, that is basically how FSI/SFI taught it. I can't imagine what you or anyone else would do that is substantially different but maybe there are other, better, ways. Anyway, hope it helps.

cc

 

[Flying Illini]

Thanks Clutch. Here are our current procedures.

Assuming PF will be in Right seat (PNF refers to left seat):
PF will perform the t/o brief before aircraft takes the runway.
Upon taking the runway, the PF (right seat) will perform the "line up check" while the PNF (left seat) performs B.F.A.T.S. check.
PNF lines aircraft up on centerline using tiller and centers the nosewheel while the PF (right seat) holds full forward yoke pressure. At that time the PNF says, your brakes, your throttles to the PF. (PF will be head down until 80 kts.) PF can either let it roll or do a "brakes held" power up. Either way, PF advances power levers and calls "set power" to which the PNF will confirm power and reply, "power set." PF (who is head down) then calls "airspeed alive" to which the PNF (who is head up and steering via tiller) will confirm and say, "mine's alive." PF will then make the "80 kts, my yoke" call and the PNF will release the tiller and transition from head up to head down to make the V1, VR, V2 calls. At the "80 kt" callout the PF will go from head down to head up to control the aircraft via rudder input. The PNF will then call "V1" at which time the PF will remove his hand from the throttles and place it on the yoke. The PNF then calls "VR" and "V2" in sequence while the PF rotates the aircraft.
That's it. Again, all PNF=left seat and all PF=right seat.

The concerns voiced by the CP was that several captains had approached him and voiced a concern about a certain co-pilot and right seat take-offs. Also said that some captains had started to complain of being unable to focus from outside, down the runway, to suddenly inside, up close at the instrument panel, to continue making callouts. It was said that for several seconds, you can't focus on stuff inside. (don't know why this wasn't a problem the past years, but it's a problem now). Apparently at the main pilot meeting on monday, when this was brought up the CP took some serious flak from several FO's (obviously) and even more captains.
CP was at FSI recently and brought this issue up and was told that most people transfer the controls (like mentioned above) at 80kts but that even more switch seats.
I hope to meet with the CP next week to discuss options. I didn't feel that the pilot meeting was the place for this, but I would like a better excuse than some captain saying that he can't focus on the inside of the airplane. Again, this comes back to the fact that this has worked for years, why doesn't it work now?!

I appreciate the help from everyone. At least this isn't a closed book issue, which is why I am trying to quickly come up with a method or a variation of a method to return me to "pilot" status as quickly as possible.

Keep the suggestions coming. PM me if you need to. If anyone has a buddy who flies an aircraft with no steering through the rudder pedals, and they perform right seat take-offs, please have him/her contact me.

Thanks again,

FI

 

[CatYaaak]

I can't imagine what you or anyone else would do that is substantially different but maybe there are other, better, ways. Anyway, hope it helps.

cc

I don't claim it's any better, but here's a slightly different way, especially taking into consideration the transfer of control problems related to a rejected T/O during deceleration. Keep in mind that in this procedure, the LH seat pilot will always perform the RTO maneuver from the call "abort", even though either pilot may have the authority to call for it. Like anything else, it requires that both pilots know what their responsibilities are, and when to assume them.......

The LH pilot maneuvers the aircraft to the runway centerline to hold (or roll), using tiller-steering and thrust, then transfers each control to the RH seat pilot by announcing "your brakes" and "your Thrust Levers" when appropriate. RH seat pilot confirms control of each ("my brakes", "my thrust levers"). The RH seat pilot controls the yoke in his right hand throughout, just as during taxi. The LH seat pilot assumes responsibility for the comm ("my radios/comm")

RH seat pilot advances TLs for initial spool-up (appx 60%), releases brakes, then advances TLs to target power setting at which time he calls for the LH seat pilot to "Set Power", or "Check Power" (FADEC) as appropriate. The LH pilot taps the the top of the the RH pilot's hand to re-assume control of thrust levers, and responds with "Power set" (minor adjusting as necessary) or "Power checked" (FADEC). From this point on, the LH seat pilot will guard the thrust levers throughout the rest of the T/O roll until the call of "V1".

After the LH seat pilot has tapped the top of the RH pilot's left hand, the RH seat pilot removes his left hand from the TLs to the yoke. (He'll be "two hands on the yoke" from this point until making power-setting changes after lift-off, or the aircraft is nearly stopped during an RTO).

During the initial T/O roll up until the point where the rudder becomes aerodynamically effective (check AFM...probably between 80-90 kts), the LH seat pilot has the responsiblity to maintain the runway centerline via tiller-wheel steering. Prior to the rudder becoming fully effective, the RH seat pilot will anticipate rudder deflection required for crosswind, weathervaning tendency etc, and make rudder inputs during acceleration. The LH seat pilot will monitor these to make sure they're appropriate.

At the point the rudder becomes fully-effective, the LH pilot will release pressure on the tiller and call out "Your steering", or "your airplane" (since the RH seat pilot now has full control authority of rudder, yoke, and brakes). The RH seat pilot will respond accordingly ("My steering") at which point the LH pilot will take his left had off the tiller. From this point on, the LH pilot is only guarding the thrust levers and monitoring speeds, control, and systems while making callouts.

At his call of "V1", the LH pilot removes his right hand from the TLs.

If at any time it becomes necessary to abort the T/O, the RH pilot will relenquish control of the aircraft to the LH seat pilot. The Pilot Flying up until that point, isn't the Pilot Aborting.

Thus if aborting the T/O becomes necessary, there's no ambiguity as to who's transferring what and when. The LH seat pilot immediately re-assumes control of brakes and with it rudder control-authority, and his hand was already on the TLs/reversers for quick reduction as soon as the problem arose. There's a smooth transfer from rudder-authority to tiller as necessary while slowing through that 80-90kt zone because it's not happening between two different pilots, and you also avoid a situation (if the RH/PF were performing the high-speed part of the RTO) where the RH seat pilot may be using differential braking to maintain centerline with the LH seat pilot fighting against apparent yaw tendencies (the braking) he's feeling with the tiller...working against each other. Better if he's making the differential brake application if needed, and that's especially true if it's slippery.

Also, if control is transferred back to the LH pilot immediately, the RH seat pilot can be deploying lift dump/spoilers, calling ATC regarding immenent stoppage on the runway (critical in low-vis conditions), and be ready on emergency braking if that requires a seperate motion so the LH seat can concentrate on maintaining centerline with rudder/tiller. He can already be assessing the situation as they slow, and be ready with Memory Items or advising pax not to leap out onto the runway, unless needed.

In other words, its always easier to be prepared if you always have the same set of duties during a sudden, critical procedure every time from that seat, instead of mixing and matching depending on who was assigned to fly that leg, when it doesnt apply anymore.

Anyway, that's another way to divide up responsibilities during a take-off when you can't nosewheel-steer through the rudders. It's an incremental transfer during acceleration with the PF on the right side being able to concentrate and anticipate steering authority, but in turn where the emphasis is achieving an unambiguous RTO because it reverts control immediately back to the person who has all the controls available that will be needed throughout.

I'm sure there's other ways that work well too. They'll all work pretty well as long as everyone is on the same page of the same book.

 

[CatYaaak]

The concerns voiced by the CP was that several captains had approached him and voiced a concern about a certain co-pilot and right seat take-offs. Also said that some captains had started to complain of being unable to focus from outside, down the runway, to suddenly inside, up close at the instrument panel, to continue making callouts. It was said that for several seconds, you can't focus on stuff inside. (don't know why this wasn't a problem the past years, but it's a problem now).

FI

I guess I'd like to know what those guys who are having trouble "focusing" on after switching to heads-down after 80kts are trying to look for. What are your abort criteria after 80kts besides the "biggies" that would give them a big red light, a master caution, and a siren or bell? I mean, I hope they aren't just staring inside..glued to small minutia after the high-speed point is passed. Aren't they taking a glance or two down the runway to make sure the RH seat guy isnt getting ready to take them off-roading into the dunes?

And if they can't look out, and then look in to focus on the airspeed indicator to make callouts, then they should have their medicals revoked until they get glasses or new perscriptions. Looking "out and in and out and in" is something pretty basic required for flying. How do they fly an approach, even in visual conditions if they can't do that?

How sad if they're trying to shake up what look to me like (your) good procedures because of self-denial that they're losing the ability to see. If a Captain can't monitor a take-off using proven procedures, then they probably shouldn't be a captain at all until someone figures out why.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

Well crap! I just finished typing this thing and somehow managed to lose it. ARGH! I'm going for the condensed version this time...

I'm glad you elaborated on your situation... I was wondering but didn't want to pry. You just don't trash a procedure that has worked for the last 16 yrs for the sake of change. I agree with CatYaaak... their argument doesn't make sense to me. And there isn't anything wrong with your procedures - they aren't radically different than ours. CatYaaak was right when he said, "They'll all work pretty well as long as everyone is on the same page of the same book."

For what it's worth, we never had a problem with the procedure I listed above. That's probably because we flew it the way we trained it. And the transfer of control on an RTO never seemed to be an issue I think because you make a similar exchange of control on every landing, albeit with a different heart rate! But having said that, I like CatYaaak's way too. I might even take it a step further:

The only difference would be that the LH pilot would be the only pilot to manipulate the TL's on TO. The RH pilot would call for the power to be set and would be both hands on the yoke throughout the TO procedure. I flew for a place that handled it this way and it worked fine. In that case, however, the airplane had nosewheel steering available to the RH pilot. That does't really matter much though... unless the airplane has full-authority steering at the RH station, there has to be an exchange of aircraft control at some point.

Anyway, hopefully you'll get a few more people to weigh in so you'll have plenty of ammo when you go to make your case. Good luck!

cc

 

[Flying Illini]

Thanks a lot, this is all very good info, keep it coming! I will keep all posted on the progression of this.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Hey dude give me a call. We did takeoffs like this in the Saab, I can explain them to you if you want. Still got my number? Saves a lot of typing.

 

[ackattacker]

Hmm... seems to me that if the Captains have a problem with simply transitioning from outside to inside then no amount of procedural changes will help.

For what it's worth, here's a condensed version of what we do in the ATR (no RH nosewheel steering).

The taxi out, lineup, brake release, and initial power setting are all performed exactly as if it was the Captains leg. The Captain has the tiller, rudders, brakes, and power levers. The FO has the yoke and fine-tunes the power. The FO is "following" on the rudder pedals. At some point, when the Captain feels that the rudders are effective enough, he will call "Your controls." This may be before or after the 70kt call (depending upon crosswind). The FO places both hands on the yoke and calls "My controls". The Captain removes his hand from the tiller but continues to guard the power levers in case of an abort. The Captain now transitions inside and makes the 70kt call (if not accomplished already) and the V1, rotate call. At the V1 call, the captain removes his hand from the power levers. From this point on it's just like any flight with the Captain as PNF and the FO is PF.

How this is different from your current procedure? First, the Captain is ALWAYS in the left seat. Avoiding swapping seats simplifies a number of things. Second, the LH pilot (Captain) always initiates the takeoff roll and there's no separate handover of brakes or throttles. The only "handoff" is a simple "your controls, my controls" and this is accomplished when the LH pilot (heads up and steering) feels it is safe, unlike in your procedure when the handoff is accomplished when the RH pilot (heads down) sees 80 kts. Also, I am confused about the "80kts, my yoke" call... doesn't the RH pilot already have the yoke? He must, because the LH pilot has the tiller and the power levers! What he's really taking is the rudder steering.

Our procedure works well for us. Before each takeoff roll we confirm who has the leg, and then at the appropriate time the Captain either calls "your controls", or, if it's his leg, "my controls". The key is consistency. Everyone has to be on the same page. If your company has been running one way for 16 years, then any changes need to be thought out very carefully and everyone trained on the new procedure at more or less the same time.

Also, I should note that our GOM requires in some situations that the LH pilot perform the takeoff, such as a high crosswind component or severe low-vis.

 

[Flying Illini]

Also, I am confused about the "80kts, my yoke" call... doesn't the RH pilot already have the yoke? He must, because the LH pilot has the tiller and the power levers! What he's really taking is the rudder steering.

You are correct, that is confusing. The call is "my yoke" because when it is the left seat take off, the right seater has the yoke and at the 80kt callout by the right seater, the left seater will call 'my yoke" indicating that it is his airplane. The same applies for the right seat take-off. the yoke is held forward for max downforce on the nosewheel and that is only released (my yoke) when the 80kt call is completed b/c then there is no reason for max downforce since steering is being accomplished with rudder pedals only.
I can see how that would be confusing though...never thought of it that way...guess it's because that's how I learned.

Thanks for the replies so far, I'm getting some great info. Myself and my company thank you.

 

[kc135ang]

I fly the kc135 and we have no nose wheel steering. Left seat pilot uses the tiller to 90 knots (typically) or Vmcg If necessary and then right seat pilot takes over with the rudder for directional control.

 

[ackattacker]

You are correct, that is confusing. The call is "my yoke" because when it is the left seat take off, the right seater has the yoke and at the 80kt callout by the right seater, the left seater will call 'my yoke" indicating that it is his airplane. The same applies for the right seat take-off. the yoke is held forward for max downforce on the nosewheel and that is only released (my yoke) when the 80kt call is completed b/c then there is no reason for max downforce since steering is being accomplished with rudder pedals only.

I think part of the reason for the difference in procedures is differences in airplane design... in the ATR, if you tried to steer with the tiller till 80kt the airplane would be all over the runway, the tiller is too sensistive. The rudder is highly effective almost as soon as you start to move with any significant speed. So typically the captain will start to roll with tiller control and then immediately start steering with the rudders. As soon as he is satisfied that the rudder control is working to steer straight he will hand it off.

Also, the RH pilot does not simply hold the nose down. When he has the yoke, he is expected to "fly" it. The ATR has a narrow wheelbase and in a crosswind the yoke needs to be deflected, otherwise the aircraft will lean precariously. This applies after a right-seat landing, also...

In the procedure Clutch_Cargo posted, he did note the the the PF's call is "My Yoke" if the LH pilot is PF, but the call is "My Aircraft" if the RH pilot is PF. This makes more sense to me... in the first case, the LH pilot already has primary control of the aircraft (since he's steering on the ground) and is just taking one additional control (the yoke). In the second case, the RH pilot did not have primary control but now does - hence "My Aircraft".