Please help, need medical ASAP!!

[Occam's Razor]

Do any of you believe the FAA takes the whole medication issue too seriously overall? I say I believe that to be the case because in other highly demanding and responsible professions the mere fact that you take antidepressants is not a show stopper.

For one thing, I don't think it matters if the FAR's are too rigid. They are what they are. Either we comply with them, or we face the consequences. The piece of paper, or the confidence of our instructors isn't what makes us good pilots.

It's discipline, judgement, and the ability to manage risk maturely.

I'm guessing everybody has felt some level of depression before. It's a matter of "how much, and "for how long". I have never been diagnosed clinically depressed, or prescribed antidepressants, but many pilots have. If a pilot gets to the point where they need a chemical to keep the discipline, judgement, and ability to manage risk above the thoughts and distractions attendant to medication-necessary depression...they shouldn't fly. That's not just my opinion...it's the law.

As mature risk-managers, we can decide to take the drugs and lie to the FAA. It's only our personal and professional integrity.

If a brain surgeon, police officer, fire fighter, school bus driver, or cruise ship captain takes antidepressants as far as I know, this alone will not prohibit them from working.

You're wrong about the school bus driver and the cruise ship captain...but I don't know about the first three. I suspect there are legal restrictions on them performing all of their duties while taking psychotropic meds. Of course, a pilot can do revisions and study for a check ride while medicated. (Joy!)

Surely every single one of these safety sensitive professions require at lot more responsibility and training, and are more demanding than flying a C-172 to a $100 hamburger when its CAVU.

Doesn't matter. The FAR's are, largely by necessity, a one-size-fits-all rulebook. Waivers are permissible, especially where there is good history on the condition. 20-years ago there were no pilots flying Pt. 121 with a pacemaker. Now there are hundreds. The FAA, ALPA, AOPA, and other organizations have done a lot of studies on heart conditions, and have developed specific guidelines for heart performance and health.

I think it might be tough for them to develop specific guidelines and limits on depression, or the use of antidepressants.

Are you

a) A "little blue"?
b) In a deep funk?
c) Melancholy to the point of distraction?
d) Suicidal?

Does the drug make you

a) happy, but hyper?
b) moody, but not suicidal?
c) sleepy?

If you want to start a thread about the over-prescription of antidepressants, I'll participate. The issue here is whether or not a pilot taking them should notify the FAA.

 

[macfly]

Perfect way to position this debate!

 

[macfly]

I want happy pilots...period.

 

[Erlanger]

Some months ago, maybe a year ago, the FAA went after dozens of pilots in California for falsifying their medical apps. These applicants mainly didn't reveal info about their prior medical history from what I vaguely remember. Can anyone tell me how the FAA found out about these pilots past medical histories?

I never read the privacy forms that doctors have you read and sign, and maybe I should next time, but does anyone know what they really say and what info if any can a doctor release other then to the insurance companies. Also, can that info be given to your company by way of the insurance company?

 

[PUNISHER]

Some months ago, maybe a year ago, the FAA went after dozens of pilots in California for falsifying their medical apps. These applicants mainly didn't reveal info about their prior medical history from what I vaguely remember. Can anyone tell me how the FAA found out about these pilots past medical histories?

I never read the privacy forms that doctors have you read and sign, and maybe I should next time, but does anyone know what they really say and what info if any can a doctor release other then to the insurance companies. Also, can that info be given to your company by way of the insurance company?

When dozens of names turned up in both Social Security Administration and FAA rolls, "they realized there was probably criminal wrongdoing--either lying to the FAA or wrongfully receiving benefits,"Cobar said
source:
http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusgen/ap07-19-113234.asp?t=apnew#body

 

[PAPA FOX!]

I never read the privacy forms that doctors have you read and sign, and maybe I should next time, but does anyone know what they really say and what info if any can a doctor release other then to the insurance companies. Also, can that info be given to your company by way of the insurance company?

Only the insurance companies can have access to these records unless you give your written consent for anyone else. No, the insurance company can not give the info to your employer unless again you give consent for them. Since HIPPA they are VERY STRICT about this. Heck when my sister had shoulder surgery she had to sign a million different forms just for her own MOTHER to get info!! If by some one in a million chance your employer did find out obviously the resulting lawsuit would be so astronomical that keeping my job would be the least of my worries!!!

As for how the FAA caught these schanigans, the DHS was doing a cross check of SSN's with the airman registry. I have NO SYMPATHY for the pilots who were stupid enough to not consider how easy they would have been found out!! Put 2 and 2 together genius!

 

[Occam's Razor]

There are plenty of pilots flying on anti-depressants, its a fact; im buddies with a head shrinker and he has airline pilot for clients and more than 1 my freind.

Agree. I also think there are pilots flying drunk. I think both groups are doing something stupid. I think they jeopardize safety, and cast our profession in a poor light.

But it's just lying to the FAA...so why should it matter to us?

Get off your GD high horse here guy, frankly it stinks.

If compliance with FAR's is a "high horse", then I'll stay up here, thank you. You handle it your way, and I'll handle it mine. We'll see which one of us has a long and successful career in aviation.

I'd bet you would make a great cop, with a predisposition for the narc section.

Shack! I am a "cop". I carry a gun at work and everything! Perhaps you can rush my cockpit in flight some time and I'll show it to you.

I'm sorry man, you hollier than tho attitude is uke:

Hope you're feeling better soon. My attitude is not the issue here.

The poor kids prolly screwed himself already by ratting himself out to the faa. Now he has a black mark on his record for the rest of his career, simply because he was down and out for a few months.

I disagree. I don't think getting treated for depression is a bad thing. If you can provide any evidence that pilots who are treated for depression, and properly notify the FAA about it are "screwed", I'd like to see it. I also think it would be a bigger "black mark" to be treated for depression, fail to document it...and have the FAA find out later.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Brandon, I do know somebody that checked "depression" on the medical back in 93'. He was going through the exact same situation with a girlfriend as well. Women, I tell yah! Anyway, I dont think that he had taken any medications, but he lost his medical for 6 months. He only got it back becasue he knew someone in the FAA who pulled some serious strings, otherwise he would have been without a medical for quite a bit longer (as I was told).

What the FAA doesnt know cant hurt you. They are not your friends and they are not there to help you one bit. I am not saying that you may not get your medical for 6 months or more...........certainly not that at all. Perhaps they have become more lenient on situations like this. I honeslty wouldnt know. But as someone else mentioned, having a REALLY good letter from your physician explaining your situation to the tee and that he/she sees no problem with you flying whatsoever is a must ( I was involved in a medical problem previously where my doctors strong and supporting letter totally helped me out).

Just some food for thought. If I can get a hold of my friend that went through this as described above, I will see what other info I can get from him. Until then, good luck Brandon. I am sure that you will get your medical back.

 

[PAPA FOX!]

Anyway, I dont think that he had taken any medications, but he lost his medical for 6 months. He only got it back becasue he knew someone in the FAA who pulled some serious strings, otherwise he would have been without a medical for quite a bit longer (as I was told).

That is very surprising. Either two things must have happened in your friends case. One is that his depression must have been pretty debilitating or two, he must have gone to the wrong AME. From what I hear, most AME's will issue you a medical provided you are off meds and have a supporting letter from your treating doctor stating you are stable and pose no risk to flight safety. According to FAR 67 depression alone is not disqualifying when medication is not being used. If you are depressed and need to see a psychiatrist w/o meds you are in the green. If you don't need psychotharapy but need meds then obviously you are not permitted to fly.


Brandon- make sure you do find the right AME, preferably one who has dealt with this many times before. Another possibility is to try the herbal suppliment St John's Wort. The FAA has no rule against taking this to treat depression and from what I hear it works pretty well for mild to moderate depression.

 

[AV80R]

Quite some time ago I had a student who was ready to solo and I kept prodding him to get his medical because I felt he was ready. Finally he did, he soloed and was working on his cross country flying when he received a call from his AME. Apparently he disclosed to him that some three years earlier (he was in high school then) he was put on Ritalin (not sure about spelling) for being hyper active. He said half the guys in his class were put on it and he only used the medication for three months.
Well, apparently if you’ve been using Ritalin you must wait 5 years (!) after the end of treatment before you can apply for a medical, so his medical was revoked!

I remember the chief pilot at my flight school tried to pull some strings with the feds to no avail.

I also remember discussions with the FAA we had about different medical conditions when all this was happening and I think the minimum “medical denied” time for most situations was 6 months (and depression was one example mentioned then!), 2 years for by-pass surgery (no heart attack) to get a third class, 3 years for by-pass surgery (after a heart attack) to get a third class, etc, etc. It was many years ago (~95?) but it seems the feds take a very conservative approach when it comes to medical issues so whatever you decide talk to an AME you can trust first (maybe on the phone without giving your name?) Also, I agree with a previous posting regarding www.leftseat.com, they are professionals and I think you can be anonymous. Good luck to you!

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Oscum's Razor, if you want to be totally honest, you might want to start checking the box on your Medical application (box letter "o") where it asks yes or no for alcohol dependence or abuse. Everybody knows that pilots are some of the biggest drinkers around. (I know there are exceptions out there, so if you fall in that group, no need to make a post about it) In my years of flying, on long layovers, nearly 100% of the guys I've flown with have "abused alcohol" during the layover. According to dictionary.com, "alcohol abuse: excessive use of alcohol and alcoholic drinks."
My point is that if we all started checking the alcohol abuse box on the application, then we'd all be getting calls from the FAA and start loosing our medicals. The FAA dosen't take that stuff lightly and they don't have a sense of humor.

 

[FL420]

Man, this thread is depressing me and I'm a happy guy. To realize there are so many people sharing the airspace with us who don't seem to have an ethical bone in their bodies boggles my mind. I wonder if some of you advising this guy to lie about his medical history are the same people who pop out of a cloud right in front of you to the surprise not only of you but also to ATC since they weren't on an instrument flight plan nor were they squawking(happened to me.) I have known at least one guy who routinely flies his MU-2 above FL180 with lights and transponder off. Your rationalizations sound like his.

Rant over. Practically speaking, I used to have a co-pilot who in a previous career had been the SAN ATC tower controller who had called the C-172 as traffic to the B-727 crew of PSA 182 in September, 1978. PSA reported the traffic in sight shortly before they collided. You history buffs will recognize this accident as the one credited with the implementation of the sterile cockpit rule. It also helped with the creation of more TCA's, the forerunners of today's Class B airspace.

This guy was required by the FAA to get post-accident counseling. He was understandably crushed and hoped maybe it would help him deal with his feelings so he agreed. I don't believe any anti-depressant drugs were involved at all.

He eventually lost his enthusiasm for an ATC career and began a career as a pilot. He was a very nice guy and very conscientious. He wasn't eager to talk about the accident but was up front about it and his role in it. He would talk to me about it because I had flown in the Navy with 4 of the PSA pilots who died in the crash. I did not blame him at all for their deaths.

After building enough hours in the right seat of a Navajo, he got on with a commuter(sorry, regional) in California. He had been with them several years when the FAA abruptly revoked his medical for not disclosing on his medical application the counseling he had received years earlier as an ATC controller. Counseling that was provided by and required by the FAA. It turns out a co-worker who didn't like him turned him in.

I found out about this sometime after the fact and tried to encourage him to fight this totally capricious action by the FAA but the fight was gone out of him by this point. He decided to move on in another direction. It was his choice but not the choice I would have made.

I would recommend that before seeking a new medical that you obtain quality professional advice. The AOPA legal department is good as is Pilot Medical Solutions. A very strong favorable letter from your treating AME is essential. It is a battle that can be won but taking the easy way out by concealing it could well bite you in the butt later when you least expect it or can afford it.

 

[PAPA FOX!]

Oscum's Razor, if you want to be totally honest, you might want to start checking the box on your Medical application (box letter "o") where it asks yes or no for alcohol dependence or abuse. Everybody knows that pilots are some of the biggest drinkers around. (I know there are exceptions out there, so if you fall in that group, no need to make a post about it) In my years of flying, on long layovers, nearly 100% of the guys I've flown with have "abused alcohol" during the layover. According to dictionary.com, "alcohol abuse: excessive use of alcohol and alcoholic drinks."
My point is that if we all started checking the alcohol abuse box on the application, then we'd all be getting calls from the FAA and start loosing our medicals. The FAA dosen't take that stuff lightly and they don't have a sense of humor.

I think you said it very well. Another scenario is when it askes you:

1) Eye or vision trouble except glasses
2) Dizziness or fainting spells


Does that mean that when someone was riding a bike as a kid and a bug flew into their eye and temporarily caused blurred vision that someone has to report that?

If some pilot was taking part in a little league tradition where two contestants put their forehead on a bat and circle it a number of times to see who can stand it the longest and they get dizzy does this have to be reported?

I think everyone here gets my drift. If this is the litmus test that a lot of pilots are guilty of falsifaction. Surely common sense dictates otherwise however.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Man, this thread is depressing me and I'm a happy guy. To realize there are so many people sharing the airspace with us who don't seem to have an ethical bone in their bodies boggles my mind. I wonder if some of you advising this guy to lie about his medical history are the same people who pop out of a cloud right in front of you to the surprise not only of you but also to ATC since they weren't on an instrument flight plan nor were they squawking.

You're missing the point. I can't speak for anyone else on here, but I'm not advocating people to be unsafe, fly with chest pain or fly while taking meds. Just because I said that in my opinion, it is unwise to tell your AME that you are or were depressed does not mean that I do not follow FAR's when I fly.
You're talking about 2 different things.

 

[avbug]

Oscum's Razor, if you want to be totally honest, you might want to start checking the box on your Medical application (box letter "o") where it asks yes or no for alcohol dependence or abuse. Everybody knows that pilots are some of the biggest drinkers around. (I know there are exceptions out there, so if you fall in that group, no need to make a post about it) In my years of flying, on long layovers, nearly 100% of the guys I've flown with have "abused alcohol" during the layover. According to dictionary.com, "alcohol abuse: excessive use of alcohol and alcoholic drinks."

This has passed the point of absurdity.

The thread was founded on the concept of regaining medical certification following clinical diagnosis and treatment of a mental disorder and the use of psychotropic or mood altering drugs.

It is not about a one time overuse of alcohol. NO comparison here at all.

Incidentally, I'm one of those few...I don't drink, never have, don't intend to.

The poster has been diagnosed and treated for depression, and the guidelines are clear. No reason exists why the poster should not have a medical certificate, and this is easily demonstrated to the FAA. Further, once it's demonstrated, it need never be an issue again. The only further documentation will be checking the box, and in remarks stating "previously reported, no change."

As a chronic asthmatic I was denied a medical certificate. I jumped the hoops, took it to Oklahoma city. Now, along with another condition, I check the box and state, "Previously reported, no change." I never have to worry about it again. It's a done deal. It's not something that could be used against me, not something over which a 250,000 dollar fine and a potential prison sentence for fraud and falsification might be hanging over my head, it's handled.

This poster has the same opportunity. Do it right the first time. I'm forever amazed at the slanted mentality of those who go through life looking for loopholes. Always trying to find another way. The regulation is clear, the method for clearing this situation is clear, and help is available. The poster has been given correct counsel, to which any further information will not help.

No one here can help the poster. The poster needs to seek proper direction, and has expressed his intent to do so, first through AOPA, and second from leftseat.com. Further arguing about the point is well, pointless.

And no...a night of heavy drinking, or the occasional drink, does not constitute reportable chronic alcohol abuse, nor would it result in a clinical assessment of alcohol abuse.

 

[Guitar rocker]

That is very surprising. Either two things must have happened in your friends case. One is that his depression must have been pretty debilitating or two, he must have gone to the wrong AME. From what I hear, most AME's will issue you a medical provided you are off meds and have a supporting letter from your treating doctor stating you are stable and pose no risk to flight safety. According to FAR 67 depression alone is not disqualifying when medication is not being used. If you are depressed and need to see a psychiatrist w/o meds you are in the green. If you don't need psychotharapy but need meds then obviously you are not permitted to fly.

I am not sure about all his circumstances. I'd have rattle his cage some.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

This has passed the point of absurdity.

The thread was founded on the concept of regaining medical certification following clinical diagnosis and treatment of a mental disorder and the use of psychotropic or mood altering drugs.

It is not about a one time overuse of alcohol. NO comparison here at all.

Incidentally, I'm one of those few...I don't drink, never have, don't intend to.

The poster has been diagnosed and treated for depression, and the guidelines are clear. No reason exists why the poster should not have a medical certificate, and this is easily demonstrated to the FAA. Further, once it's demonstrated, it need never be an issue again. The only further documentation will be checking the box, and in remarks stating "previously reported, no change."

As a chronic asthmatic I was denied a medical certificate. I jumped the hoops, took it to Oklahoma city. Now, along with another condition, I check the box and state, "Previously reported, no change." I never have to worry about it again. It's a done deal. It's not something that could be used against me, not something over which a 250,000 dollar fine and a potential prison sentence for fraud and falsification might be hanging over my head, it's handled.

This poster has the same opportunity. Do it right the first time. I'm forever amazed at the slanted mentality of those who go through life looking for loopholes. Always trying to find another way. The regulation is clear, the method for clearing this situation is clear, and help is available. The poster has been given correct counsel, to which any further information will not help.

No one here can help the poster. The poster needs to seek proper direction, and has expressed his intent to do so, first through AOPA, and second from leftseat.com. Further arguing about the point is well, pointless.

And no...a night of heavy drinking, or the occasional drink, does not constitute reportable chronic alcohol abuse, nor would it result in a clinical assessment of alcohol abuse.

I should have known at some point Avbug would show up in this thread trying to save the day with some long "be-all and end-all" type post. Ok, here we go.

Avbug: This thread has passed the point of absurdity to you because you're not the guy who is risking the potential loss of his medical and a challenging and tiresome battle to get it back.
The majority of pilots that I've seen in my career drink like the dickens when they're on the road, and I'll be willing to bet that they do it when thye're off, too. That's called alcohol abuse. Not that it's important in this discussion or not, but I personally drink as much as the next pilot does. In my opinion, anything more than about 4-5 drinks in one sitting is excessive, so if you've done that within the past 12 calendar months, you have to put that on your medical that you've used alcohol or alcoholic drinks in excess..or...that you've abused alcohol. The FAA dosent care if you've abused it one time or if you habitually abuse it. Remember, the FAA has no sense of humor when it comes to this type of thing.
It didn't suprise me when you made your comment above about you not drinking. I'm not suggesting that people who drink are better than people who choose not to drink, however, it does fit your persona of being so straight laced. Maybe if you'd loosen up and have a drink every now and then, you wouldn't be so straight laced and high strung on this message board. There's more to life than flightinfo.com, Mr. "I-comment-on-every-thread-ever-posted" guy!!! Anyway, Im not looking to have a pi$$ing contest with you or anything Avbug, but sometimes your posts get under my skin, that's all.

Anyway, I think we can all help "the poster" (by the way, "the poster" as you call him has a name, it's Brandon.) Ultimately, he'll do whatever he wants, and there has been some people advocating him to disclose all history to the FAA and there are some people saying to not tell the FAA anything. Basically, Brandon will do what is right for him. I personally hope he just fixes his situation with a regular doctor, then checks all the "NO" boxes on his medical application, so he can then graduate. Simple as that.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Flyer,

The difference between having a few drinks, and Brandon's issue is a medical diagnosis.

Agree?

Start a thread on drinking, and we can all weigh in, but I think it's a little weasely to try to connect it to this situation. There's no gray area here. Once the doctor gives you the prescription and you pop the first Wellbutrin/Zoloft/etc., it's a "YES" in the block.

I'm a little troubled by your comment, "Brandon will do what is right for him."

I agree with you that all of us should practice good self-care, and it appears he has by seeking help...but I'm not sure breaking the law and lying is "right for him".

 

[avbug]

I should have known at some point Avbug would show up in this thread trying to save the day with some long "be-all and end-all" type post. Ok, here we go.

Actually, brightspark, I was one of the early posters in this thread, twice, and the information I posted there was true, and correct. No one on this board can help the poster. I counseled him to seek professional help, to not fraudulently or falsely state he does not have the condtion under discussion, and noted that he can easily get the situation rectified.

I also noted in this thread that I have had disqualifying conditions (two) which no do not plague me, because I handled the situation properly. I noted that the poster needs to do the same, and that no apparent reason exists why the poster cannot have his medical privileges restored.

The poster agreed, and as I just stated in the above post, will follow that course of action. The poster intends first to seek help through AOPA member services, and then via Pilot Medical Soloutions at www.leftseat.com.

Perhaps you need to read the thread a little more carefully before spouting off. No, I didn't wait until the last minute. No I made no effort to "save the day." No, I am not posting in ignorance of the original posters plight or future...as the issue or disqualifying conditions and the reporting thereof is something I have dealt with personally, and which I report faithfully every 6 months on my own first class medical application.

The comparison of a few social drinks, or even a night of excessive drinking, to a clinical diagnosis of a mental or emotional condition with attendant treatment by a professional and the use of chemical mind or mood altering drugs, is a poor one at best, and in truth, a pathetic effort to cloud the issue. Worse, the effort to cloud the issue is driven toward encouraging the poster to place himself in jeopardy by falsifying a federal document, thereby committing fraud, to the tune of a quarter of a million dollars in fines, five years in prison, and revocation of all certificates and ratings. How the FAA finds out isn't important...the fact that the FAA might, that the poster would know and have to live with that unpleasant possibility, and that it's ethically and morally incorrect, are all pretty darn good reasons to do it right in the first place.

W(h)eather you agree or not, it's a fact.

 

[oilcanbland]

Man, this thing got out of hand. I think I've reached one conclusion from all of this. MEDICALS SUCK!