Please grow up

[Swaayze]

I am saddened by the attitudes of so many on this board who belittle the Mesa pilots, particularly to the point of intending to deny them jumpseats. Let me say this once please:


THE JUMPSEAT IS NOT THE PLACE FOR YOUR ANGER AND PUNITIVE ACTIONS. IT IS TOO VALUABLE AND TOO VULNERABLE!


These pilots are not scabs, not even the Freedom guys, and denial of the jumpseat will only serve to further degrade our profession.

Now, as to them keeping you down, well, gosh, that's a bummer. Join the club. Your fight is not theirs. If you've ever been whipsawed as badly as they have you'd probably be a little more understanding. Hell, I wish we would all stand together and help each other as well, but it just doesn't work that way yet. In addition, I find many of your rants quite hypocritical, since the codesharing regionals have essentially done the same thing to the mainline pilot groups for years and those contracts are helping to cause the massive outsourcing going on right now industrywide. Though it's not really the pilots' fault.

Bottom line IMO is this I guess. Don't scab, fight for your best deal within the confines of your own reality (family, career, morality, etc.) and do your job well. Let these predatory managements take the brunt of the blame which they deserve, not your fellow pilots who are legitimately trying to get by.

Disclaimer: I don't commute, though I have. I am a furloughed mainline pilot, with a multi-regional background. I am flying for an independant regional that does not code share (not Freedom), and I suspect I'll be job hunting again any day now. I am not bitter towards the regionals getting mainline flying, that's overwhelmingly managements' fault. I'm just tired of the misguided anger.

Good luck to all and Godspeed to our troops and our country!

 

[BoredToDeath]

I am saddened by the attitudes of so many on this board who belittle the Mesa pilots, particularly to the point of intending to deny them jumpseats. Let me say this once please:


THE JUMPSEAT IS NOT THE PLACE FOR YOUR ANGER AND PUNITIVE ACTIONS. IT IS TOO VALUABLE AND TOO VULNERABLE!


These pilots are not scabs, not even the Freedom guys, and denial of the jumpseat will only serve to further degrade our profession.

Now, as to them keeping you down, well, gosh, that's a bummer. Join the club. Your fight is not theirs. If you've ever been whipsawed as badly as they have you'd probably be a little more understanding. Hell, I wish we would all stand together and help each other as well, but it just doesn't work that way yet. In addition, I find many of your rants quite hypocritical, since the codesharing regionals have essentially done the same thing to the mainline pilot groups for years and those contracts are helping to cause the massive outsourcing going on right now industrywide. Though it's not really the pilots' fault.

Bottom line IMO is this I guess. Don't scab, fight for your best deal within the confines of your own reality (family, career, morality, etc.) and do your job well. Let these predatory managements take the brunt of the blame which they deserve, not your fellow pilots who are legitimately trying to get by.

Disclaimer: I don't commute, though I have. I am a furloughed mainline pilot, with a multi-regional background. I am flying for an independant regional that does not code share (not Freedom), and I suspect I'll be job hunting again any day now. I am not bitter towards the regionals getting mainline flying, that's overwhelmingly managements' fault. I'm just tired of the misguided anger.

Good luck to all and Godspeed to our troops and our country!

Swaayze,

I'm just gonna give you another point of view and tell me what you think for the sake of disccusion.

Your right the jumpseat is valuable, just like a paycheck. And in the coming months those paychecks will be coming down further with the help of Mesa's new contract. This has already happened at PSA with our FAs, thankfully they were able to stand up to it and gain minor improvements, so the argument that it won't happen cannot be used. Why should the pilots that voted to help mgt. win the battle against all regionals be priviledged to ride that seat. They had the chance to stand up and they choose to lay down even though Mesa IS NOT IN ANY FINANCIAL CRISIS. Only the companys they code share with are. And as of this date Mesa or CHQ HAVE NOT been asked to give concessions to thier code-share partners. The current contracts with companys such as U and AW would not have changed regardless of what was agreed to between the pilots and Mesa. All the pilots did now was put more money into JO's pocket. Mesa's code-shares would not have felt the difference one way or the other. So would'nt it have behoved the Mesa pilots to get what they deserved? Really I don't think that the anger is misguided. Yes mgt. has started alot of this, but the pilots had the choice of how much of it they were going to take. Right or wrong?


Now with regionals taking ML flying. If we were flying 73s at our rates then yes I would say that we took your flying. But we don't, we don't even move half of those people. Don't you think Mgt. would rather move as many people as they could. That means they would want bigger planes on routes. Right now no ones flying so those routes that can not support large AC need to have smaller ones on them. Thats where we come in. But if your ML MEC's were smart enough along time ago all flying being operated by a company regardless of AC SIZE would have been operated by the pilots on that Sen. list. I am very against the outsourcing of U's flying but it is completely due to the senior pilots lack of vision.

As far as having simpathly for the amount of whipsawing that the Mesa pilots have gone through, thats a tough one. It's tough because the U WO's have been, and will continue to be whipsawed against them and a host of others flying in our colors. The unity you speak of can ONLY happen when there is no more outsourcing and ONE LIST. And even that would be a dream.

 

[328dude]

Swaayze:

Hows your job doing. Things don't look to good for you guys right now.

Just curious.

 

[ERJdca]

Swaayze,

Thank you for that post. I personally voted no, and i have an alpa confirmation number to prove it. Id like to clear some confusion up on the contract. Our sechedule's run on a 28 bid day cycle which we are guarenteed 70hrs(which is 75 for a 30 day) and 10 days off for line holders. The average day's off in the 28 day cycle is 11, 12 is pretty common if you are somewhat senior, and 13 if you can plan your integration period right. The company right now has been improving the schedules, which were absolutely terrible. They are working with several new optimizers that is finally starting to produce acceptable trips, and more lines with 13 days off and 12, i think i even seen some 14 days somewhere in ther. Our lines before were averaging 70 hours of pay, now we are averaging 75-83. THey are saying that will increase, and i believe it will (JO finally realized if we only work seventy hours a bid period, he actually pays us a 100 hours or so MORE than we actually fly a year) Remember, thats on a 28 day period, cant compare that to 30. As for the pay rates, yes they are well under comair and aca, would i love to get them, absolutely!!! Did i think we would get anywhere near them, not at all. You guys have to remember, delta and united(prior to their chapter 11 filing) are not our partners. There are many things with this TA that i disagreed with, but honestly, i didn't think we would see much of a raise, i expected to see an f/o raise though. (there wasn't) But there are a number of issues that could have been resolved that would have significantly increase the QOL. Now as far as some of you who are taking this to the extent of denying a jumpseat, i think thats outrageous! Remember i voted no, and extremely upset at the decisions of my pilot group, but denying a guy a ride home, come on? Dont burn your bridges guys, u never know who that jumpseater is, and how he could have any effect on you in the future, dont let this bite you in the ass later. Remember its a two way street. As for the freedom guys, go right ahead! They are the ones that put us in this position, and there are lists to go around. Its a shame that there's reasons why "no one will talk to us" and we are "whores". I dont agree to this TA, and i can understand your feelings. And if you really want to direct your feelings in a professional manor, go talk to the mesa negotiating commitee, there the ones that told everyone at the road shows to sign this or you will lose your job. Good luck out there guys!


PS
Not a mesa whore. (actaully we have a pretty good group of guys, if you gave us the chance you would see.) As to those who choose not to "talk to us", fine with me, i wouldn't want to associate with a person like yourself then. Maybe in 10 years when i work for a major, i might be able to sit with you!

 

[Swaayze]

Bored,

Don't forget who ultimately controls the jumpseat: management and/or the FAA. All we need is for a jumpseat war to break out right now and have them say enough is enough and do away with it. If you had 2 small children you'd be familiar with the "that's enough" theory!

Their punishment (if you want to call it that) is that they must live with what they agreed to. That's enough punishment I think. I'm really not sure they had much choice unless they wanted to further Freedom's cause. In all honesty, if you've been looking at the very few jobs available outside the airlines, maybe even Mesa isn't that horrible (after a few years on the property anyway) in the grand scheme of things, if you really love flying for a living.

As for the regional/mainline argument: I don't necessarily disagree with you much, but you do have to admit that overall pay/benefits/workrules between the 2 groups has not been a linear relationship. F28s paid alot more than CRJ 700s if I'm not mistaken. Furthermore growth has been restructured to where the mainlines never saw pairs they otherwise might've. Some routes may support 3 or 4 737 flts/day, but instead they've chosen to go with 8 RJ flts instead. Better for the customer and the company that way probably. It's just good business, but it sucks for pilot careers. The real problem is simply that we are in a high supply/low demand profession right now.

Yes, the WOs have been in the middle of a s... sandwich. As much as I and many other mainline pilots would've liked to help (I was Eagle and many newhires were ex-regional guys who understood and were sympathetic to your cause) we had enough trouble trying to keep our own house in order. It kinda goes back to my original statement: your fight was not ours.


328Dude and CVG. My job is extremely vulnerable right now. I have been granted 2 stays here already. Two of our already qualified pilots are on furlough in addition to the 9 newhires, which makes me next to go.

I'm not sure if y'all were being sarcastic or not, but just for the record I never complained about the raw deal I got. Yes it sucks, but it's nobody's fault but mine. I made the choices based on the info I had at the time and they didn't necessarily work out yet; though so far I have been blessed with a paycheck for flying airplanes and a wonderful amount of time with my family since my furlough.


Regards

 

[hhab]

"They ( Mesa ) had the chance to stand up and they choose to lay down even though Mesa IS NOT IN ANY FINANCIAL CRISIS. Only the companys they code share with are......"

----Even though we lost $ last 2 quaters, you are right, We are not in a financial crisis. That is not the reasom the majority of Mesa pilots voted yes. It had mostly to do with getting proper SCOPE LANGUAGE and secure the freedom flying.


" Thats where we come in. But if your ML MEC's were smart enough along time ago all flying being operated by a company regardless of AC SIZE would have been operated by the pilots on that Sen. list. I am very against the outsourcing of U's flying but it is completely due to the senior pilots lack of vision...

... The unity you speak of can ONLY happen when there is no more outsourcing and ONE LIST. And even that would be a dream"

---There you go... You aknowledge how important SCOPE is, yet you do not think MESA pilots should be entiled any (scope) since then we will have to accept a lesser contract. Realize that SCOPE costs. We got exacly in our scope language what you want above and do not be in a dream world and belive that came cheap. Without scope, Mesa would be gone the day IF U was to be liquidated, so there is a closer link between the condition of our code-sharers than you think.
Please put your anger where it belongs: The pilots that crossed over to Freedom, the real reason why we had hardly any negotiation power.

Take care

 

[Swass]

Re: ahhh yes

Ahhh yes... The continued saga of Great Plains Airlines.

You've got to admit that when furloughed pilots end up at places like Great Plains, Boston Maine, Colgan... well, they really got the raw end of the deal for making the choice to grab for the brass ring.

Where are you at? I wouldn't be so bitter, things have a strange way of coming back to you.

 

[jobear]

Mesa

I feel i should apologize for my rant on a previous posting over this TA, After talking to our MEC chairman and reading the details of the MESA TA it still is not great but compared to what choices they had it was the best deal for them at this time.

Good luck to all & Please support our TROOPS

Jobear

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Swayze

Swayze,

I dont think CVG was being sarcastic.

It is sad that pilots who made the decision to try and grab for the so-called "brass ring" and fly for the majors are being furloughed by the thousands now. It will be the better part of a decade (barring any further terrorist attacks) before these companies recall their pilots and begin to hire again.

It is sad that most of the few reputable companies out there require seniority resignation.

It is sad that the few companies who are hiring and who do not require seniority resignation are fly-by-night operators like the one that you have the apparant misfortune to work for.

If UAL or US Airways were to go out of business -- liquidate, and the market were flooded with thousands of extremely highly qualified pilots, the situation would become even worse. We need to find a place to fly if we intend to remain in the industry.

I admire you for continuing to fly in the face of adversity and I hope that you and your family are able to steer your career back on course -- if not with a major airline, than with some other company, doing what you love -- flying airplanes.

Those pilots who frequent this message board as well as others and tell you that "you made your choice" to leave your previous company and fly for a major airline and therefore must bear the responsibility for that choice are, in my opinion, a little bit jealous.

Many of them would have jumped at the opportunity to fly for Delta or United or US Airways had they been given the chance.

I hope things work out at Great Plains, but if they dont you will certainly find employment elsewhere. As far as resigning your seniority goes, I guess you have to ask yourself (as we all had to do...) what is the dollar value on job-security? Perhaps a large, stable, regional would provide you and your family with a better long-term career than continuously striving to stay on the bottom of a major airline seniority list.

That is a game for the young. You and I need to find a place to sit out the remaining years until we retire, spend as much time as possible at home, and enjoy flying airplanes from time to time.

Didnt mean to hijack the thread though.

As far as the Freedom/Jumpseat question goes. I would never use the jumpseat as a political weapon. Any pilot with the proper credentials would be welcome on my jumpseat (if I had one to offer). Nothing is, in my opinion, more important than getting home. I do not consider the Freedom pilot scabs -- they crossed no picket line. If working for a substandard contract somehow undermined the bargaining power of Mesa, then there are a lot of airline pilots out there who would fall into the same supposed category. I dont buy it.

My vote? Let em' ride.