• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Planned Completion Time (135)

EatSleepFly

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2003
Posts
648
Total Time
Some
OK, I fly 135 on-demand freight.

We all know that we need to have 10 consecutive hours of rest in the 24 hours preceding the "PLANNED completion time of the assignment."

My question is this. What constitutes the "planned" part of planned completion time?

Say you are in position to pick up freight. It's your second trip of the day, and you've already been on duty for 10 hours. Once you get the freight, you have a 45 min. hop to another airport to clear inbound Customs (which takes AT LEAST 30 minutes), then another 1.5 hour leg to the freight's final destination. So up to this point, everything is fine and dandy, legally speaking.

Then the FBO guy comes up and says he just found out the freight will be 3 hours late. Now what?

I am of the opinion that the "plan" changed. I told the dispatcher if it was indeed that late, I wasn't going to be the one to do it. He hung up on me (nice huh?).

The freight showed up in time, I flew it down, and unloaded it with .5 hour to spare of my 14 hours (but still had to do a 2 hr. reposition flight home). Then the dispatcher tells me the CP wants me to call him. The rat ba$tard pr*ck of a dispatcher called the CP and ratted me out because I said I wasn't cool with taking off on a trip knowing several hours in advance that if I waited around, it would go well over my duty day before I finished.

The CP says (in so many words), tough crap- it was planned to be completed before your 14 hours was up, so you are legal to do it and therefore have to. If fatigue is an issue, that will be an "office decision". "Office decision?!" Ex-f*cking-scuse me?!?!?! Yeaaahhh... my resume circulation will be getting a drastic increase.

Anyways, is this really legal? Where does it end? Your duty period could go on indefinitely if it is.

Come on FAA... please finish that 135 rewrite before I end up dead- or more likely- fired for leaving a $hitload of late-arrived freight sitting on the ramp somewhere and flying home at the end of my 14 hour day.
 

HS125

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Posts
193
Total Time
Enough
Yep! If the freight was indeed three hours late, you could have still flown. Just make sure that you document that the freight was late.
 

EatSleepFly

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2003
Posts
648
Total Time
Some
It's one thing if you get in position, and have no clue what time it's going to be there and end up waiting three hours. Or waiting for 3 hours to clear inbound customs with the freight on board.

It's another to definitively know that it will be three more hours before the freight is even available to be loaded, and then still wait for it, load it, take off and go.

In my opinion at least...
 

Doc Holiday

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 10, 2005
Posts
114
Total Time
>1000
According to some legal opinions, your CP is correct. As long as the orginal plan was reasonable, and the delay was beyond the control of your or your employer, you are legal to complete the operation. If you reference 135.267, it uses phrases like "planned completion" and "regularly assigned". The operator needs to show that it scheduled you according to the regs and that the delays were not its fault.

Check out FARs Explained for part 135. There are extensive references and legal opionions about this type of situation.
 

421Driver

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Posts
172
Total Time
3300
Using the above logic, a passenger could schedule a 135 flight for a 10 hour duty day knowing that they would not return in time to make it a 16 hour day. Your company would have the appropriate documents to show that your "planned completion time" was within the 14 hour duty limit, but you would be forced with the decision at the end of the day to go, and bust you 14 hour day, or not go and abide by the rules. Although it is an "unforseen delay" on your end, I find it hard to believe that a Fed would take the same interpretation.
 

PropsR4Boats

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
121
Total Time
4gs
Do a Google search for FAA FSDO offices. Each office usually post their own web site with phone numbers and emails of their inspectors. Find and contact your local FSDO then contact another one…try Oklahoma City. They are usually conservative on the side of safety as they do not have any (many) shady freight companies in the state.

Email them, that way the response will be in writing.

I’m on your side. The way I have always thought is…if at the time of departure (of each leg) you cannot expect to complete that leg (based of planned flight time) within your legal duty time window then you can’t go.
 

RichardFitzwell

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
347
Total Time
7500
You are right!

Hey ESF,

Remember, "Legal to start, legal to finish." If you are legal to start the FLIGHT LEG you are legal to finish it. The amount of time you go over your duty will affect the time required for rest before your next assignment though.

I agree with Propsr4Boats. It is on a per leg basis. Some operators (like yours) will try to turn it into a per trip basis but that is not how the FAA meant it. Be careful doing this. Like 421driver said, if it were per trip there would be no end to how much you could be on duty. Call Sarah Davis at the CLE FSDO. She is very helpful. 440-686-2001.

BTW - Did I mention Express Jet is hiring??? I think I did. U hitched yet?
 

EatSleepFly

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2003
Posts
648
Total Time
Some
RichardFitzwell said:
Call Sarah Davis at the CLE FSDO. She is very helpful. 440-686-2001.


Thanks- I'll give her a call. I tried calling the FSDO yesterday, but they keep banker's hours. I'd like to get something in writing saying it's on a "per leg" basis so I have something to back me up next time this becomes an issue.

BTW - Did I mention Express Jet is hiring??? I think I did. U hitched yet?

I resubmitted my app., but I hear they are pretty firm on recent multi requirements. I've sent my stuff in to a few others as well. Nothing yet. Why hire someone with double the mins and single pilot freight experience when you can hire someone with 600 hours total time? :rolleyes:

Nope, not hitched yet. Although... she makes more than I do but works half as much. You might be on to something...
 
Last edited:

Doc Holiday

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 10, 2005
Posts
114
Total Time
>1000
421Driver said:
Using the above logic, a passenger could schedule a 135 flight for a 10 hour duty day knowing that they would not return in time to make it a 16 hour day. Your company would have the appropriate documents to show that your "planned completion time" was within the 14 hour duty limit, but you would be forced with the decision at the end of the day to go, and bust you 14 hour day, or not go and abide by the rules. Although it is an "unforseen delay" on your end, I find it hard to believe that a Fed would take the same interpretation.

This is going to sound harsh, and I'm pretty sure you weren't trying to start a fight, but here it goes. Comments like the one quoted above drive me crazy. I'm not dissagreeing with the loophole you mentioned above, but this is strictly an opinion based on your 'logic' and nothing more. I haven't been posting here very long, but most of my posts are regarding training/reg questions people have brought up. I do this for two main reasons: 1) I enjoy discussing things like this, and 2) I try to use it as an excersice to increase my knowledge in these matters. ONE THING I ALWAYS TRY TO DO IS LIST A REFERENCE FOR WHERE MY POST CAME FROM. I am not a lawyer or an expert by any means and people should investigate the matter for themselves no matter what before taking anybody's advice/opinions/answers for gospel. One of my biggest pet peeves is when you ask someone a question, they give you a give you an answer and can't back it up with anything because they are too lazy/bigheaded/ignorant to find a reference.

Check out some of Lead Sled's and Avbug's posts. If I remember correctly these guys have much more experience than me and tend to use a lot of references and give good answers to questions. A gentlemen who is kind of a mentor to me is very much this way as a result of studying and learning consistently over a career. This is the level I'm working to achieve in the future.

I am not always right and don't claim to be, and if I am wrong I want someone to correct me so that I can learn. One thing though, a reference better be involved if it exists.
 
Top