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Piper Apache for Multi-time

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I fly a 310R and it is a great airplane. We fly our NA 310s at 75% power and they burn about 33gph at 180 knots. The turbo 310s burn 36-38gph at 75% power and 195 knots. We charge our vendor $130 per hour plus fuel, which works out to about $260 or so per hour. The planes will fly at much reduced power settings but we are a time critical freight operator. Maintenance on the 310R has been relatively minimal, with the heaters getting worked on the most. We have also replaced a couple starters and one vacuum pump in the last six months, spread over three planes.

edit - by "minimal" I mean these are very reliable planes, not that we skimp on mx.
 
In Minnesota during the winter it is almost an emergency situation to have one fail :). Engine blankets work as a crutch in those situations.
 
Twinkie!

Twin Comanche is supposed to be a cheap airplane to run, and fast for the fuel burn, that is what I would get if I had a real job.
 
Zekeflyer said:
LR25,
Thanks for your response.
So do you own a 310? it sounds lke you do. If so, let me know what your maintenance cost is like, annual costs, hangar rate compared to the singles, etc. I will look at this by assuming fuel burn to be about 22gph.
I havent mentioned insurance, but with only 275hrs and less than 15hrs in a twin, I wonder if insurance will kill my ambitions? What's your experience?


Thanks.

I dont own a 310, just came close to it a few times.

I have done a couple prebuys on the 310 and Apaches, the 310 seemed the better way to go.

As far as insurance, you can get a quote for nothing, you might want to start with that for both types your interested in.

I got some qoutes 8 yrs or so ago, and it wasnt that bad.
 
I bought an Apache last summer to do just like you're wanting. Build "cheap" multi time. (if there is such a thing). I too, listened to all the people dog the Apache, and say the 310 was the better way to go. I almost even bought into a partnership on a 310. I had my planes of choice narrowed to the Apache, the 310, and my favorite the Twin Comanche. The Apache offered low purchase price, and low operating costs. The other 2 planes offer one or the other. With the 310 you can purchase one reasonably, but it'll eat you alive with todays fuel prices. The Twin Co. is a really nice plane with low operating costs , and excellent cruise speeds, but you'll be lucky to find one even with 2 timed out engines for less than 60K. Most are 80K and higher. But after about 6 months of searching, I found the perfect Apache for me. Not a cream puff, but also not a neglected pig (like a lot are).

Look for a plane that already has the mods you want done to it. This way the previous owners have paid for the upgrades and not you. There were several things I wanted in an Apache. First, it had to be a 160 hp (why even mess with the 150's), it had to have the new Hartzell Top Props already installed. You really don't want the hassle of the 250 hr AD on the old props. I wanted dual generators or alternators. I wanted the backup electric hydraulic pump. (hand pumping the gear up right after takeoff with an engine failure, is really something I want nothing to do with). I wanted decent working radios, and less than TBO engines. And all that at a reasonable and affordable price. That doesn't make finding a plane very easy, but I did find one eventually.

I found a 58 Apache 160, with alot of the Geronimo mods (extended nose, square tail, hoerner wingtips, dorsal fin, speed slope windshield), 400 hr Top Props, 1300 hr LE, and 400 hr RE, electric hyd. pump, dual alternators, Digital Narco radios, new interior and newer paint for less than 40K. Most people think their Apaches are worth more than they are, so alot of them stay for sale for a long time. I know of a couple that have been for sale for a year and a half. So be sure not to overpay, or you'll never get your money back out of the plane.

As far as maintenance, find an A&P who'll let you do alot of the work yourself. Being able to do my own maintenance is a huge savings. Most of those AD's have already been complied with over the years (but be sure to check this on a prebuy). As far as repetitive AD's, the Apache is no worse than any other plane in my opinion. I also found insurance rates were surprisingly better than I had hoped for. (much better than 310 insurance prices). My yearly premium when I bought the plane (with 700 hr TT, and only 10 hrs of Multi), was $2900 thru AOPA ins. agency. (this will hopefully drop even more now that I have some hrs built up in the plane). Avemco quoted me at over $4000.

I fly everywhere at 55% power, unless I'm going somewhere with a purpose. I average about 14 gal/hr, and I always use Airnav to plan my fuel stops. I also try to find other people looking to build multi time to fly with as much as possible. After everthing is added up, as long as I'm splitting time with another person, I'm building multi engine PIC, in a plane I own, for less than the rental price of a 172.
 
Apache Driver said:
I bought an Apache last summer to do just like you're wanting. Build "cheap" multi time. (if there is such a thing). I too, listened to all the people dog the Apache, and say the 310 was the better way to go. I almost even bought into a partnership on a 310. I had my planes of choice narrowed to the Apache, the 310, and my favorite the Twin Comanche. The Apache offered low purchase price, and low operating costs. The other 2 planes offer one or the other. With the 310 you can purchase one reasonably, but it'll eat you alive with todays fuel prices. The Twin Co. is a really nice plane with low operating costs , and excellent cruise speeds, but you'll be lucky to find one even with 2 timed out engines for less than 60K. Most are 80K and higher. But after about 6 months of searching, I found the perfect Apache for me. Not a cream puff, but also not a neglected pig (like a lot are).

Look for a plane that already has the mods you want done to it. This way the previous owners have paid for the upgrades and not you. There were several things I wanted in an Apache. First, it had to be a 160 hp (why even mess with the 150's), it had to have the new Hartzell Top Props already installed. You really don't want the hassle of the 250 hr AD on the old props. I wanted dual generators or alternators. I wanted the backup electric hydraulic pump. (hand pumping the gear up right after takeoff with an engine failure, is really something I want nothing to do with). I wanted decent working radios, and less than TBO engines. And all that at a reasonable and affordable price. That doesn't make finding a plane very easy, but I did find one eventually.

I found a 58 Apache 160, with alot of the Geronimo mods (extended nose, square tail, hoerner wingtips, dorsal fin, speed slope windshield), 400 hr Top Props, 1300 hr LE, and 400 hr RE, electric hyd. pump, dual alternators, Digital Narco radios, new interior and newer paint for less than 40K. Most people think their Apaches are worth more than they are, so alot of them stay for sale for a long time. I know of a couple that have been for sale for a year and a half. So be sure not to overpay, or you'll never get your money back out of the plane.

As far as maintenance, find an A&P who'll let you do alot of the work yourself. Being able to do my own maintenance is a huge savings. Most of those AD's have already been complied with over the years (but be sure to check this on a prebuy). As far as repetitive AD's, the Apache is no worse than any other plane in my opinion. I also found insurance rates were surprisingly better than I had hoped for. (much better than 310 insurance prices). My yearly premium when I bought the plane (with 700 hr TT, and only 10 hrs of Multi), was $2900 thru AOPA ins. agency. (this will hopefully drop even more now that I have some hrs built up in the plane). Avemco quoted me at over $4000.

I fly everywhere at 55% power, unless I'm going somewhere with a purpose. I average about 14 gal/hr, and I always use Airnav to plan my fuel stops. I also try to find other people looking to build multi time to fly with as much as possible. After everthing is added up, as long as I'm splitting time with another person, I'm building multi engine PIC, in a plane I own, for less than the rental price of a 172.


Apache, Where are you located?
 
Apache For Multi-time

Y'all,
I still have to do the math thoroughly, but it looks like the Apache is the way to go.
It offers fuel burn similar to other light light twins~15-17gph. But is is a bargain on both Price and insurance, if you get covered. A lot of places wont cover Apaches.
The Twin Comm, The Beech Travel Air, and the Grumman offer same fuel burn and about 35 to 40 kts more speed but purchase price is about $80K and up for an airplane in good condition and mid life engines....and insurance is also higher for these airplanes.
The 310 is out of the question soley on fuel burn. At $3.50/gal and 300 hours, that's about $23100 assuming a fuel burn of about 22gph...Great on purchase price and Maintanance, but expensive to operate.
That leads me back to the apache. The prices are all over the place but it looks like one could be had for about $60k+ with all the ADs complied with...If I could get a partner, we would be able to fly for about $50/hr per person assuming the same fuel costs, a fuel burn of about 15gph, $4000 in insurance, $3000 for an annual, and $2500 for hanger/ tie down...but I have to get an airplane with ALL the AD's complied with.
Does this rough analysis look too simple? If anyone knows better, please let me hear about it.

Thanks.
 
Looks like your numbers are pretty close. I was just looking at Apaches on Trade-a-plane. Looks like you should be able to find one with mid time engines, No AD props, and decent radios for about $45 to $50K. If they're asking more than that, its either a cream puff (rare), or probably they trying to get alot more than its worth.
 
There is an Apache for sale at Falcon Field in Mesa, AZ. I think it was used for 135 ops and I'm pretty sure it has the engine upgrade. Call Red Mountain Aircraft at (480)-693-4404 for details.
 

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