Piper Apache for Multi-time

[Zekeflyer]

Ladies and Gents,
I was thinking of buying a twin, specifically a piper apache to build Multi-time. I anticipate owning the airplane for less than a year, and in that time putting about 300 to 500 hours in it, and then selling it.
I need to do so cause I can't afford to leave my Job for that of a CFI with all of its great pay and benefits.
I figure I need to sit in the office for at least a couple of years before I can pay off college debts and the like and realistically look for an airline/cargo/any kind of flying job with health insurace and real benefits...
Everyone's two cents on this issue will be grately appreciated.

(P.S. Info on the apache itself in terms of upkeep would be like Gold)


And Go!

 

[LR25]

I was going to do the same thing you did a while back, but never followed through. I found the Apache to be an all right airplane for the purpose, but you have to find that cream puff that will hoprfully treat you right.

I am an A&P but no expert. I did 2 or 3 pre buys and found a few disturbing issues.

1. The newer the airplane, the AD's start mounting, on the engine and airframe. I think on a 58 I was looking at, it had 23 or so airframe AD's and about 10 or so engine AD's.

2. stay away from the turbo normalized Apaches. Just something you dont need and an item that may end up costing you big.

The biggest problem for me was finding that good airplane. All the ones that fit the finacial bill just wasnt an airplane I wanted to take a risk on.

There are Geronimo conversions and "partial" conversions. These seem to be a little bit better airplane, but the added cost put them out of contention for me.

I switched focus and started looking at first year 310's (1955) and found it to be a superior airplane for not much more cost, and a he!! of alot better on maintenance, but of course those airplanes have a couple of pitfalls also.

As far Apaches, I think luck in finding a nice airplane and for a descent cost is what it will take.

PM me and I will try to pick my brain on things I can remember, this was about 9-10yrs ago.

 

[Vector4fun]

Check out this pirep:

http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepApache.html

Then this page has some info:

http://members.aol.com/pa23150/MEL.html

There's a list of the Australian ADs here:

http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/schedules/ad_display.asp?sched=UNDER&toc=PA-23

I can't add a lot more. I flew several, but almost 30 years ago now. Most are abused dogs. ADs on the props, tail, and more. If the heater hasn't been maintained properly, it's dangerous. Tends to run hot on one engine, so be leary of engines recently used for training. I've seen the nose gear steering linkages bent from mis-handling. The instrument panel is likely going to be a mish-mash of 10-30 yr old instruments and radios that may or may not work properly. Listen, the one I trained in back in 1974 was already mostly junk and beat up back then. I wouldn't want to stand within 20 yards of it nowadays if I saw it on the ramp.

Be very, very careful. You could easily buy one, and at the first annual, find it would take a month and $10,000 (or more) to actually make it legal and airworthy. Trying to find one with log books actually current and complete could be like trying to find a '57 Chevy hard-top with only 30,000 actual miles. The lycomings are good engines, but you gotta have a paper trail. If your own mother tells you all the ADs are up-to-date and complete, don't take her word for it. Pay someone knowledgeable to check.

Sorry to sound so negative. But most folks just don't maintain these planes like they would another model with more value. They treat them like a third-hand Bayliner. Leave 'm sit out and rot....

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

Zeke,

I can't add much to the thread except to say that I also had this same idea about 15 yrs ago. To parrot LR25, I am also an A&P but no expert... and I came to the same conclusions. If you could find a cherry example you'd probably be alright. Unfortunately, I doubt many (any?) of those exist anymore. I gave up, never did make a purchase, and built my time giving multi-engine instruction. Good luck on your hunt!

cc

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Lessee, Apache tidbits.

1. Stay away from the 150hp versions, go with the 160's or better...they are slow enough already

2. Prop hub AD's Make sure you check on the pre buy, and everytime you shut down, place the blades horizontal to the ramp(mags off of course...safety tip #3 ), this keeps rainwater from standing in the hubs and getting in to start corrosion. I did this and no hint of hub problems.

3. Parts are getting kind of scarce, find a good fabricator to replace fairings etc..

4. Original Apaches only had one generator, most have been changed to duel systems.

5. Original panel is the typical 1950's scattered mess, there are kits to change over to a center stack radio panel, but I just rearranged the instruments to get them close to a "6 Pack".

6. Look out for rudder damage from wind on the ground, make sure you use an external rudder lock(Remove before flight!!...safety tip #2). There is enough travel in high wind for the rudder to impact the elevators and take damage.

7. Heater is old fashioned janitrol, with fuel cutoff in the cockpit, be vigilant about possible leaks, same with tank switches. There is "normal" avgas smell when switching tanks....and then there is "abnormal avgas smell" know the difference...the previous owner can define the normal for you.

8. Scrap the 5th seat.......it is only for show anyhow...I used mine as a back up incase of a problem!

Good time builder..slower than snail poo, and only burns 12 to 16 gallons an hour...perfect to build multi time with.

Big and comfy seats, kind of like a 58 Caddy!!!!! Which is good since at 125 kts...you will be in them a while.

Mine was a 58 model, not too bad on the AD's as long as it is current when you buy it, Maint. was straight forward...no real surprises on a fitty year old bird!!

My wife and I and our dog went coast to coast and back in that puppy, and even though it took a while, it has enough room and is comfortable enough to make a trip like that enjoyable. (As long as you don't do it every month!)

Too tired to remember anything else right now............for what it's worth, I spent 6 hours in a Citation today....and it's left seat isn't near as comfy as the old apache's was. Hmmm, wonder if I can find an STC to replace a citation seat with an apache seat? Maybe mount some big ole tail fins on the T/R's and eat some jelly doughnuts while listening to Elvis tunes on the Ipod!!!!!!



(whoa...mind drifting bad....must have sleep........................and a jelly doughnut..............with blue suede shoes.............)

 

[Zekeflyer]

Multi engine Trainer

Thanks, Y'all!
I didn't expect so many responses so soon.
Getting back to the issue at hand, I think I'll pretty much stay away from the apache, unless some one makes a compelling argument for it.
I figured a fifty year old airplane can't be expected to be easy on maintenance, but I did not expect so many ADs. I knew about the prop ADs, but not about the 20 or so others!
Now then, I am not particularly attached to the Apache, just need a bird with more than one engine on her to build that much coveted multi-time. So any suggestions on a better airplane with "reasonable upkeep costs" will do just fine.
I will investigate LR-125's suggestion on the earlier 310s, but the litttle I've read about them, coupled with their incredible Fuel burn just sours me to the Idea of getting one...then there's that pending AD on the wing spars for the twin cessnas...
So, like before, any suggestions on a Multi-aircraft that might fit the bill better will be great...

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Consider buying some block time....

There are quite a few training centers that offer wet/dry rates based on 100 hours. I would advise not paying all of it up front, incase they close the doors or the multi breaks, etc.

Spirit Aviation at Flagler, FL (X47?) had a couple of PA23-160s and some C310s. Use the block time to go to the Bahamas, training, etc, and split the costs with another pilot that wants to do the same thing.

Look for a flying club that has a multi, sign up and take some time off and fly it until you drop.

 

[deadstick]

"If it flies, floats, or...(you know)...RENT IT"

I, too, looked down this road. One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned is insurance. Start there. Many will not even cover the Apache. All the AD concerns are right on. Don't *plan* on adding Top Props or avionics because you will NOT recoup that money. The $10,000 annual is very real and makes the little $50,000 PA23 not that good of a deal. It can turn into a money pit VERY fast and that could be after only 1 hour of "time building" (ie an engine pukes on the flight home from the pre-buy).

Find a place that has a time building program. Take your annual vacation there and time build. A long time ago, I was able to get about 65 hrs in in 9 days. I was exhausted but it got the job done.

If you are set on owning, another option is a partnership. There were 5 guys here who all chipped in on a Baron. Divide the fixed expenses upand pay a common fund for every hour you fly.

Just some ideas. Best of luck.

 

[logansun]

Zeke, Do you live in the San Antonio, Tx area? I'm going to post some q's about the same idea. I actually was wanting to do a share between three pilots. Let me know. Logan

 

[LR25]

As far as an older 310, the fuel burn can be out of site especially with todays prices, but you can fly it all day long at 50-55% power, and it will probobly do 130kts still.

Back a few years ago you could still pick one up for a fair price.

Not sure what the new wing AD is, but they do have spar corrosion issue with some types of the 310 with the way they route the augmentors.

I also wouldnt completely disregard the Apache either, some out there are still worth pursueing, just have to have a little luck on your side.

Also think about older Aztecs.