Pipefitters vs. Pilots

[CiFIknow]

I haven't been a big union guy but, an obvious observation is that our so-called "union" is not a union at all. If I were a pipefitter working for Pipefitters Union Local 116, I would be working for union scale for the work I did. Assume I work for ABC Sewer Line Company. ABC Sewer Line Company bids on a job to install sewer lines for a municipality. Along comes XYZ Sewer Line Company and they also bid for the same job. My fellow union bretheren work for XYZ Sewer Line Company and demand the same union scale for the work they do. Whichever company that is awarded the contract to install the sewer line for the municipality based on a "low bid" has given the low bid based on other economies other than labor costs. My union brother at XYZ is still assured of making his union scale regardless of the bid placed by his company. We, on the other hand, seem to be willing to do our jobs at a lower wage scale than our other "union" brothers in the hopes that this will give us some more PIC time, etc... Hence, the race to the bottom continues. I know this isn't rocket science or anything new. Just funny that Pipefitters get it better than we do.

 

[pa31350pilot]

You're absolutely right. I wouldn't initially blame the CHQ pilot group, but this post really made me think. What if the CHQ union group said no to management and said they would not take this flying? I understand that this notion is unfortunatley un-realistic....who would want to pass up the chance for growth and diversity? But what if they did? If the unions could gather that much solidarity for once, maybe we wouldn't have these problems. It seems our unions are only worried about the particular situation at their airline, and not of the profession as a whole. We're all in this together, unfortunately too many people can't realize this. Sad, really sad.

 

[threegreen]

If you say no, mesa will get it.

 

[CiFIknow]

WTF? If you say no then Mesa gets it??

 

[Crash Pad]

Yeah buddy. Try to talk pilots into a universal contract. Good luck tell me how that works out for you. Pilots have egos bigger than the houses in peachtree city. The idea of a team or group effort is the most repulsive thing most pilots can imagine.

I for one find ALPA hilarious and the pilots who live and die by ALPA slogans also crack me up.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Do the pipefitters operate under the federal code? Educate yourself on the RLA. You may realize that is not ALPA, rather a culture and power that most don't know

 

[BenderGonzales]

ALPA slogan?? Which one? "I Got Mine, Screw You"?

 

[FN FAL]

Do the pipefitters operate under the federal code? Educate yourself on the RLA. You may realize that is not ALPA, rather a culture and power that most don't know

The Federal government has authority to legislate/regulate:

a)interstate commerce

b)import/export

c)crimes against the federal government

d)matters of national security

e)civil rights

Airlines and aviation easily falls under interstate commerce and import/export regulation. It's simple to see why something such as the RLA exists when looking at airlines, because they do greatly "effect interstate commerce" and "channels of interstate commerce".

I'm sure that turd chasers greatly effect interstate commerce, but that's going to be a tough concept to sell, especially considering that the fruits of their labor ultimately wind up in the metropolitan sewage district.

 

[blzr]

Maybe all pilots should be government employees, like ATC or federal judges. Then you would have a guaranteed pension and yearly pay raises paid for by the tax payer. Then the Govt could leas out the pilots to all the airlines.

Yeah, I know, this would never work. But look how good things are working now. May be time for a change.

 

[pilotyip]

This is still a great job, where else can a high grad have a shot at making 100K per year in his mid 30's doing something he likes. Still living the dream. Fly because you like to.

 

[Crash Pad]

But look how good things are working now. May be time for a change.

If you are Jill and Joe Sixpack things at the airlines have never been better. The airlines are doing a great job of providing transportation at low prices. Why would the government regulate a service that is working well?

 

[pilotyip]

remember according to Boeing there is an impending world wide shortage of pilots. Those who hang in there right now will be rewarded during the hiring boom of June 2007. All the signs are there it is coming you have to believe.

 

[blzr]

If you are Jill and Joe Sixpack things at the airlines have never been better. The airlines are doing a great job of providing transportation at low prices. Why would the government regulate a service that is working well?

I didn't think of that. Maybe just have the government set a MINIMUM ticket price. Maybe $400 each way. Yeah, you would lose some travelers, but who'd miss them rednecks anyway.

Really, I was just talking about Federalizing the pilot group, not regulating airline service.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Really, I was just talking about Federalizing the pilot group, not regulating airline service.

First, the above statement is contradicting. Federalizing the pilot group IS regulation. In fact, while the economics of the Airline Industry may have been de-regulated... Air Line Pilots are still quite regulated.

This goes against the Republican Air Line Pilot (RALP). Or the majority of Air Line Pilots. The RALP is all about market forces, even if those market forces are wrecking more havoc on his ability to make living than Katrina. Because someday, someway, he is going to be ultra rich like the politicans he supports. Kinda like a Annie/ Daddy Warbucks fantasy. In addition, polarizing issues like abortion are more important to the RALP than, say, his paycheck and ability to feed, cloth and house his family.

A RALP supports the political forces that work against his ability to earn a living or even prosper.

Does this mean a RALP should join the DNC? NO!

It means Air Line Pilots should support the politicans who support Air Line Pilot issues!

Does this mean you have to forget about the abortion issue? NO!

You can still ala carte your issues. Just support your issues, not the politican. The problem is most people write a blank check to thier politician every election. RALP's have given GWB carte blanc with thier once every four year political duty.

The problem is most RALP's are so polarized and biased that they can't see past this. They are convinced, paranoid and fearful, that any association with a Dem means he his a Hilary loving, gay supporter. This is amature hour high school politics at best.

So...no. As long as we have RALP's there will be no federalizing of labor groups. But this is really irrelevant and not because of RALPs. Making Air Line pilots fed employees is so far out there. The CapHill players don't even think about stuff like this. It would be likened to Air Line Pilots addressing the issue of gremlins affecting high speed areodynamics.

BTW, one of the newest federalized work forces, the TSA, was formed under the Bush Admin, with the extremly clear understanding that the TSA shall not have the ability to strike.

If you want to make your career better, then support the politicans that support Air Line Pilot issues. Whether they are Dems or Repubs. One way to do this is support ALPA-PAC or CAPA-PAC.

 

[blzr]

REZ, you are right, Pilots are almost as regulated as Doctors, yet I don't see too many E.R.'s telling doctors to work more for alot less o the hospital is going to get another group of doctors that will.

imgine if all the ATC facilities had to hire, traine, and negotiate with their own controllers. it would be very inefficient and costly. Yet that is exactly what the airlines do and it is costing all of us (pilots) dearly.

I'm not saying that by putting all the airline pilots on a government payscale would solve anything, but it couldn't be any worse than things are now.

 

[El Ocho]

Tell me again why a one national seniority list is a bad idea?

As long as ALPA continues in this divisive "group vs group" structure, this BS will just continue to be a race to the bottom, no matter who you blame, the price of fuel, or what the economy is doing, or how enlightened management is, or how unified and empowered the pilot group is.

And again, not to blame ALPA, but it was at its very inception that ALPA struggled AGAINST one seniority list. So since its foundation ALPA has been against this, even if it were acheivable, I don't think ALPA would be for it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

REZ, you are right, Pilots are almost as regulated as Doctors, yet I don't see too many E.R.'s telling doctors to work more for alot less o the hospital is going to get another group of doctors that will. .

Two points. The isnsurance industry is wrecking havoc on the doctor profession, so we might not want to go there. Also, Drs. are regualted by each state, pilots the Fed. Again the RLA.

imgine if all the ATC facilities had to hire, traine, and negotiate with their own controllers. it would be very inefficient and costly. Yet that is exactly what the airlines do and it is costing all of us (pilots) dearly. .

All controllers work for one organiztion. All pilots work for many organizations. Your comparisons simply don't work becuase the fundamentals are so different.

I'm not saying that by putting all the airline pilots on a government payscale would solve anything, but it couldn't be any worse than things are now.

See my reply to El Ocho below....

 

[blueridge71]

And again, not to blame ALPA, but it was at its very inception that ALPA struggled AGAINST one seniority list. So since its foundation ALPA has been against this, even if it were acheivable, I don't think ALPA would be for it.

Simple enough. Dump ALPA. Create a RALPA with a single seniority list. Or easier yet, let's all become Teamsters.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Tell me again why a one national seniority list is a bad idea?.

Because, if it was such a good idea, then it would be so, wouldn't it? How would you like the laws of your state to be negoatiated by someone from Alsaka?

How would the SWA pilots like to have to take paycuts because everyone else was? You might reply, but SWA pilots are not ALPA. Answer: It is not ALPA, it is the Railway Labor Act. Why is this ok? Becuase when the industry is growing we can negotiate UAL2000 and DAL2001. The problem is when times are bad management gets to say look at the paycuts UAL took.

You can't have it both ways. But you do want to negotiate locally. This allows you to address your conerns and issues instead of not by addressing national issues. Can you even imgaine all the pilots group trying to come up with a negotiation strategy before they sat at the table? All pilot groups would have their own needs!

As long as ALPA continues in this divisive "group vs group" structure, this BS will just continue to be a race to the bottom, no matter who you blame, the price of fuel, or what the economy is doing, or how enlightened management is, or how unified and empowered the pilot group is. .

Again it is not ALPA. It is the RLA. I suggest you look in the mirror. Until we get educated on how the system works we will be banging our heads against the wall not even knowing why things don't happen the way we think they should.

And again, not to blame ALPA, but it was at its very inception that ALPA struggled AGAINST one seniority list. So since its foundation ALPA has been against this, even if it were acheivable, I don't think ALPA would be for it.

Of course ALPA is against one seniorty list. Why should a pilot group at one airline like SWA have to fly for poor wages because the rest of the industry is doing poorly?

Or in the late 1990's why should UAL and DAL have to compromise thier negotiations becuase because other carrier were not making as much money?

And what about the charter and freight guys. A Kaliita B747 10 year CA makes $127. A UAL B747 10 year CA makes $175. How can anyone expect Kaliita to pay $175? If it is any less than $175 then why should a UAL make less to accomondate a Kalitta pilot? Or did you just mean a national salary for real airlines? If you are going to change legislation (because that is what you are really talking about.. changing the the Federal Code) then you can't carve out the only airlines you like to be on a national sen. list. You must include all part 121 air carriers.

Are you still in favor of a National List?

ALPA-PAC and CAPA-PAC are ways to protect our careers.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Simple enough. Dump ALPA. Create a RALPA with a single seniority list. Or easier yet, let's all become Teamsters.

Or you could dump ideas that don't have pragmatism and realitic application. What you could do is get educated and de-tox'ed from all the flightinfo and crewroom rumor and misinformation.

You enjoyed a great CBA at ACA/Indy. The green book. Even though your fellow pilots via ALPA provided a great contract for you to get your career going and establish yourself professionally and finacially you say dump 'em.

Recall it was Tom and Kerry that made the decsions.

 

[pilotyip]

USA Jet DC-9 Captains make $174/hr, would they have to go up or down with a national list?

 

[BenderGonzales]

Someone's getting kool-aid supositories...

 

[blueridge71]

You enjoyed a great CBA at ACA/Indy. The green book. Even though your fellow pilots via ALPA provided a great contract for you to get your career going and establish yourself professionally and finacially you say dump 'em.

I have more respect for ALPA on the MEC level than National (with the exception of ALPA Safety). I have even had status reps tell me that ALPA National has huge problems. The question is whether these problems can be fixed and whether anyone has the will to do so.

I don't hold anything against Tom and Kerry. I think that IA was a great idea with abysmal timing. Unfortunately, UAL controlled the timing and not anyone at IA, but I digress.

ALPA did help ACA get a great contract that helped establish me professionally. And for what good? I made less than $15000 (W2 wages) for
11 months of work last year. I made more on umemployment.

ALPA also signed off on a Mesa contract that started the whole slide of the industry. Duane Woerth also seems willing to let our brothers at Mesaba go into management induced poverty (based on comments posted on the ASA ALPA forums after he came to ATL a few months ago).

The original post was correct. We don't have a union. We have scores of little unions that sometimes cooperate.

I don't expect it to ever become reality, but a single list is the only way I can see to prevent situations like this from reoccurring. Until then, as one pilot group makes gains, another will come along and chop them off at the knees.

At least with a single list, you preserve some of what you have worked for. As it is, years of FO experience mean nothing. When you start over as a new hire, you can still be junior to the 250 hour wonder or senior to the guy with thousands of hours of heavy captain time.

When I see ALPA working to protect my "sweat equity" and my seniority in my career, then maybe I'll change my mind. Right now, as my NC stares down another concessionary proposal from management, I just don't see it happening.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I have more respect for ALPA on the MEC level than National (with the exception of ALPA Safety). I have even had status reps tell me that ALPA National has huge problems. The question is whether these problems can be fixed and whether anyone has the will to do so. .

Sure ALPA National has huge problems. But as members are we part of the solution? First, ALPA effectiveness with the current White House is zero. ALPA membership education levels are low. With pilots calling for SOS and national Seniority list, it is hard to keep guys focused. DW does need to visit our crewrooms.

ALPA nationals primary role is to represent pilots on Cap Hill. Sure the president signs contracts, and he has refused to sign contracts in the past, but collective bargaining is a local issue.

The question is does the membership have the will to get educated and become effective?

I don't hold anything against Tom and Kerry. I think that IA was a great idea with abysmal timing. Unfortunately, UAL controlled the timing and not anyone at IA, but I digress..

There was alot of UAL bashing by IA management. Part of their game plan was USAIR going out of business. Not much of a game plan. I disagree. Tom and Kerry were pathetic and destroyed a good company. We proabably agree to disagree.

ALPA did help ACA get a great contract that helped establish me professionally. And for what good? I made less than $15000 (W2 wages) for
11 months of work last year. I made more on umemployment. .

But this isn't ALPA's fault, is it? Isn't this because the company that employed you changed their business plan? Let's point fingers truthfully. How is this ALPA's fault? Look if ALPA is to blame, then let's blame them...

ALPA also signed off on a Mesa contract that started the whole slide of the industry. Duane Woerth also seems willing to let our brothers at Mesaba go into management induced poverty (based on comments posted on the ASA ALPA forums after he came to ATL a few months ago)..

Again, National works on CapHill. Your MEC works locally. Sure national supports the MECs, but the real effectiveness comes from the MEC, Committee structure and memebership. Also, a pragamtic understand of the current environement and the Corp America cultture in out country can help. ALPA is not a silver bullet and cannot be all things to all pilots all the time.

The original post was correct. We don't have a union. We have scores of little unions that sometimes cooperate..

True, to an extent. ALPA National works on Cap Hill. The MEC's work locally. First is your orginal understanding valid? And your expectations?

I don't expect it to ever become reality, but a single list is the only way I can see to prevent situations like this from reoccurring. Until then, as one pilot group makes gains, another will come along and chop them off at the knees. .

Just wait until the industry turns. Then we can jack up the house. Unfornately in bad times management uses this structure agaisnt us. But in good times we use it against management. If we go to a single list we can't use each other to catapualt to the next level. Like DAL did with UAL's 2000 contract.

At least with a single list, you preserve some of what you have worked for. As it is, years of FO experience mean nothing. When you start over as a new hire, you can still be junior to the 250 hour wonder or senior to the guy with thousands of hours of heavy captain time. .

With a single list, when the good times come back and companies are making money, management will say, when the National list is up for negotiation then we will talk.

When I see ALPA working to protect my "sweat equity" and my seniority in my career, then maybe I'll change my mind. Right now, as my NC stares down another concessionary proposal from management, I just don't see it happening.

Again are your expectation realistic? HOW do you want ALPA to protect your "equity and seniority?" By a single list? If we had a single list then the FedEx and UPS guys would have not bargaining power. Their pay would be a simple average of all the concessionary pay rates. We need the FedEx and UPS guys to get good rates, so we can say.. See a narrowbody pilot at FX/UPS makes alot more than us and they fly boxes.

Also... HOW are you going to get ALL managments to agree to a National Single List? The only way is legislation. It all comes back to legislation.

ALPA-PAC.

 

[405]

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. - Plato

This is a great signature. It applies to airline management as well.

 

[FN FAL]

Tell me again why a one national seniority list is a bad idea?

You can have a single, national seniority list as soon as we can merge all the airlines into one, huge, single, bull dork airline.

Then, and only then, we'll let you have one big, bull dork, seniority list.

 

[pilotyip]

FN FAL, stop dealing in reality this is a pilot board.