Pinnacle

[SEVEN]

So, you’re the one who STILL thinks that flying for a ‘major’ airline [skill wise] is different than flying for a regional or a corporate department? Hhhhmmmm….

Friend, do you believe that learning to fly a CRJ as a brand new F/O is less difficult than learning to fly as a brand new F/O on a 757?

How many times you want me to repeat…BA (perhaps the World’s only truly global and most successful international airline) has repeatedly blown your theory of high-time pilot out of the water. Did you also not know about the 28-year old 747-400 Captain for KLM? And the 23-year old female 757 F/O for BA who had only 300 hours of piston time? Oh…sure…you don’t…you are still caught up in ‘major airline’ requirements in the US.

So, how did you come up with the ‘scale’ to measure 9Es performance as one of the three worst regionals? I have never worked for them but, I have friends who have. I have friends who still are, I have friends who have upgraded and loving flying out of MSP, I have friends who tried to upgrade and didn’t make it, I have friends who are F/Os and Captains and they want to move on to something else. You’d find that in any regional airline.

Five years ago my friend couldn’t get an interview with Comair (F-14 pilot); recently he left to go to NetJets because he thought they sucked. Six years ago, ACA was the name in the game, but at this very time, they are auctioning every remaining piece of property and belonging. Right now Horizon sounds good, five years ago there was a mass exodus to Piedmont. Perhaps the most stable [financially] regional airline is American Eagle, but for some it’s the worst place to work as they have insanely long upgrade time. It would be impossible to come up with a sound ‘process of performance measurement’ that would judge each and every regional and major airline fairly. Personally, most of my friends who fly for Mesa seem to be the happiest bunch.

I haven’t changed my hours since the day I got a nasty PM from someone who scolded me for writing on this forum as a low time CFI. All I can say is that I just finished training on a plane (as a F/O) that has no mechanical input to the flight surfaces…and if you really want to find out…keep your ears and eyes open for a female from the Midwest, who works as a research assistant for a professor in the Pure Math department of a major Midwestern university as her full-time job, and flies for airlines as a hobby.

Ahhh…go ahead…enlightened us all about the United fuel-starving fiasco near PDX. While you’re at it, do educate us about the AA accident at Little Rock where both pilots decided to land with the TS on the field (many died – hope you won’t try to put a spin on it as it was a deliberate attempt – not a mistake). Particularly the one in 1982 when the two pilots took off without following proper procedure and ran (figure of speech) the 737 in to the bridge near DCA.

Yep, it was a blatant disregard for procedures in some cases, but again…what do you have to say about those ‘major’ airline crews who made even worst mistakes than these two comparatively low-time pilots. And please, just don’t get stuck reading the top three examples I gave…buy a book on ‘Air Accidents’ and read few others.

Contrary to your observations, I have read in detail about the accident…in the end you’d find out, when the dust settles, that there should NEVER have been a ‘core-lock’. Even if the crew made multiple mistakes, and there’s no excuse for it, engines SHOULD’VE restarted. The crew messed up, but the plane crashed because the engines DIDN’T restart. Try looking in to how desperately Bombardier is trying to figure out what could’ve prevented the ‘core lock’ – [pure] mathematical modeling will do it for them. And they are working on it. Expect a settlement in this case as Bombardier won’t have a leg to stand on in the end (and I repeat again that the 9E crew indeed is indirectly responsible for the accident]. In a marketing gimmick, Bombardier was too quick to specify Fl410 as the ceiling, but never thought of the scenario those two pilots put themselves in to.

Yep, the Captain on the Lear with almost zero [no such quantity in math unless you’re using figure of speech, which I think you are] didn’t realize the subtle depressurization, but there’s so much more to that accident than just low time pilots. While you’re at it, why don’t you look up the UAL PDX accident when not one, not two, but three flight-deck members were directly responsible for running out of gas. Compared to near-zero Lear experience in Payne Stewart accident, try figuring out the combined total of the UAL/PDX crew on that particular airplane. You’d be surprised.

Besides, you should be unhappy that others died too. Just because PS was a celebrity, his life wasn’t wroth more than anyone else. Or less worth than the others. But, thanks for sharing your close encounter with PS: I once shook hands with Arnold Palmer’s caddie too.

Ummmmmm….here you go again. How can you quantify ‘MORE experience’?

Ever heard of ‘1,500 flight total hours or one hour flown 1,500 times’? But, I know you really go by what majors say. It’s OK.

Wow…talk about contradicting yourself. Now you say it’s a ‘…DECENT place to get some CRJ experience…’; isn’t that what we’re all doing…working for the current outfit to get some ‘DECENT’ flight time so we can move on? So, what’s your point from here on?

And UAL was supposed to fade away and Independence Air was going to give Jet Blue a serious run for their money. In the end what would happen is what the ‘management’ decide to do. This is one industry I wouldn’t bet one dollar on.

Bunny

I don't think your reply was long enough. Next time try and elaborate just a little bit more.

 

[EMB Skillz]

I haven’t changed my hours since the day I got a nasty PM from someone who scolded me for writing on this forum as a low time CFI. All I can say is that I just finished training on a plane (as a F/O) that has no mechanical input to the flight surfaces…and if you really want to find out…keep your ears and eyes open for a female from the Midwest, who works as a research assistant for a professor in the Pure Math department of a major Midwestern university as her full-time job, and flies for airlines as a hobby.

Bunny

What we really want to know is: Are you hot?

 

[dal757]

Does Pinnacle have a commuter clause?

 

[Rook]

Lear_70 has the well-earned reputation of being "one of those guys" to fly with, a nightmare from a CRM perspective. But that's not his fault.

Well Lear 70 doesn't need me to defend him but as far as his 'nightmarish' CRM habits, we've flown together on numerous occasions when I was an F/O and we never had any problems. He was one of the most experienced pilots in our new-hire class (747 CA, 737 CA, 727 CA) with the two seven guy being Lear 70. And as far as I know he's never had any line training issues. So yeah I know the company doesn't like vocal guys when it pertains to contract compliance issues, but I gotta disagree about Lear 70 being unsafe because of poor CRM skills.

 

[Reddie]

The problem with Rich (lear 70) is that he took a street captain job and spent 3-4 years on reserve in DTW during a period of extreme growth (enough to make anyone angry and bitter). Combine that with him being a insufferable know it all (pretty funny watching him "hold court" with the new FO's in ops) and it rubs people the wrong way. Cant vouch for how he is to fly with.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Keep it up, Rich! Someone needs to tell the truth about this place, because the company certainly won't when the newbies show up to interview. For the pilots out there that are thinking about coming to work at Pinnacle, listen to Lear70's words very carefully. He speaks the truth about this company, and you deserve to know the truth before coming here. Pilots are terminated often (especially probationary pilots) without just cause, you will be disciplined for calling in sick or fatigued, you will be junior-manned and extended just so the company can understaff the airline at absurd levels, and the list goes on and on. Come here if you need some quick part 121 jet time, otherwise, there are much better options.

I thought we got rid of Rich. I was looking forward to reading someone else's opinion every once in a while. At least he can no longer log onto our website!!

Forgotten, but not gone.

 

[Rook]

The problem with Rich (lear 70) (pretty funny watching him "hold court" with the new FO's in ops) and it rubs people the wrong way. Cant vouch for how he is to fly with.

Never was much for ops. Besides having to fight for a computer to check in it's just a depressing place. Kinda like 9...never mind

 

[Papps]

Quality comes from experience…I disagree…then how come military pilots all over the world get their licenses and fly on deadly missions with lot less hours than required to go to the Majors.

You can stay ‘stuck’ in the so-called ‘higher number equates to more experience, hence I deserve more than this low time pilot’ debate for long as you like, but you can never quantify how much experience makes a good pilot. It’s VERY SUBJECTIVE! I just told you in my previous post to look at how Europeans hire very low time pilots in to planes as big as 747-400s. They take our [American beliefs of ‘high time’ competency] theories and blow them out of the water on daily, but we can sit here debate all day long that more hours = competency/ good experience.

Yes, indeed, a pilot with more hours flown has more experience in the cockpit, but what kind of experience s/he had? Two of the previous examples I gave about XJ pilots out of Twin Cites (FCM CFIs) were known as ‘Closed Pattern MEIs’ – they would never take the PA44 out of the pattern on their own. Both of them flew it away from the pattern when they had the other person with them. They didn’t even want to teach in it. They logged most of their time by buying the ‘block time’ and flew together in a VFR only. What kind of experience would you call that? Again, not everyone is like those two and I’m sure there are hundred of examples, but we’d stop here.

One thing you’re completely overlooking is that the Command of these regional airlines still require fair amount of experience in a particular make and model. Still, if you’re aware of 2nd WW flying, there were 19-year olds who commanded the massive bombers over Europe and did quite well.

Your analogy of medical doctors is almost laughable. Have you ever asked the surgeon operating on you how many people s/he has operated on before? Being a professional pilot, even if you’re with the best major (whatever that is) or the best corporate flight department, most likely your health insurance would only allow you to see the cheapest form of medical practice: the top-of-the-class graduates (the smartest and ones with most experienced) are working in very expensive Private clinics. In plain English, you’re most likely being operated on by the bottom-of-the-class-graduate surgeons.


Bunny

God...... you better be a hot chick if your going to spout some crap like that. You took every low time pilot argument and smelted it together into one, painful to read post.

 

[Lear70]

I flew with Rich once...and I never complained. He had soft hands, and a smooth touch

um.....never mind, which board is this again?

ROFLMAO!!

The BDSM forums are on a different part of the board, buddy...

Bunny, I'm sorry, you just type too much. Don't have the time to read through all of it. The only tidbits I got were that you ASSUMED I said the major airlines training is different than regional training. Read again, buddy, I never said that; don't put words in my mouth.

What I DID say was that major airlines have a minimum flight time requirement, and they have it FOR A REASON (p.s. it's NOT for the training, it's for the experience to make good decisions on the line). There's plenty of data out there to support it. I'm sorry you feel it's hurting you unjustly, but most of us disagree with you.

By the way, have you ever heard of Teneriffe? How experienced was that 747 F/O that didn't speak up to tell the Captain he was being an a*s hole? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Everything else you said after that I pretty much just scrolled through. When you care to paraphrase in short sentences, let me know.

Jeeez, and I thought I typed a lot.

Dal757, yes, the commuter clause at PCL is that you must have at least two attempts to get to your trip before the report time, they can't be wingtip flights (meaning flights leaving within 5-10 minutes of each other on the other side of the airport), and you have to call after the first one to let Scheduling know you're having trouble so they can monitor what's going on and formulate a backup plan (which several of the more experienced schedulers CAN accomplish). They're not umlimited though, do it more than 2 or 3 times in a year and you'll be visiting the Chief Pilot's office for a carpet dance.

Sanchez, you'll never be rid of me, I'm like a bad habit. Incidentally, who says I'm gone from the airlinkpilots message board? Ever think that some of my friends still there let me use their user name and password to lurk?

Reddie, you're absolutely right, I was pretty angry and hostile that last year or two of reserve, had to adjust my attitude there when a friend of mine told me I looked like I was about to go postal when I was at work. Hopefully my last year there I was a lot less irritating... Tried to divorce myself from work as much as possible, the only way to survive at PCL without going crazy. As far as holding court...? "It's good to be king." Seriously though, I just thought I was being sociable... sorry you took it badly, why didn't you ever say anything?

You don't even knoooowwwww meeeeee. Thanks for the vote of confidence Rook and PCL, had fun flying with you guys, too, even if Rook's landings were better than mine.

 

[blackbox]

Sanchez, you'll never be rid of me, I'm like a bad habit. Incidentally, who says I'm gone from the airlinkpilots message board? Ever think that some of my friends still there let me use their user name and password to lurk?

Reddie, you're absolutely right, I was pretty angry and hostile that last year or two of reserve, had to adjust my attitude there when a friend of mine told me I looked like I was about to go postal when I was at work. Hopefully my last year there I was a lot less irritating... Tried to divorce myself from work as much as possible, the only way to survive at PCL without going crazy. As far as holding court...? "It's good to be king." Seriously though, I just thought I was being sociable... sorry you took it badly, why didn't you ever say anything?

If you tried to "divorce" yourself from work while at PCL the last couple years here, why would you want to come back and go out of your way to use a former co-worker's user name and password to lurk on our company's message board?

come on, admit it. You loved it here. ha!

 

[Detroitpilot22]

just my opinion for my situation... NO

Its a hell of a lot better than working at WMU

 

[Detroitpilot22]

Keep it up, Rich! Someone needs to tell the truth about this place, because the company certainly won't when the newbies show up to interview. For the pilots out there that are thinking about coming to work at Pinnacle, listen to Lear70's words very carefully. He speaks the truth about this company, and you deserve to know the truth before coming here. Pilots are terminated often (especially probationary pilots) without just cause, you will be disciplined for calling in sick or fatigued, you will be junior-manned and extended just so the company can understaff the airline at absurd levels, and the list goes on and on. Come here if you need some quick part 121 jet time, otherwise, there are much better options.

the reason people have to be junior manned is when we are short on pilots. And its tough getting people to come to the airline when they think it has such a bad rep. Why would you want to discurage people to come here when we need people. Wouldn't more people help out with our scheduling issues? Once again, I will tell you what i always tell you. If you don't like it, leave!!!!

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Its a hell of a lot better than working at WMU

True but then again being a test monkey in a lab searching for a cure for AIDS is a better job then working at WMU. That's why I left as soon as I could and laughed when I was asked if I wanted to return when I was furloughed.

 

[Flapjack]

Fly Bunny, You're delusional. Your rehashed and reused half-dozen examples of high time pilots getting into accidents does NOT prove your point..see, by far and away, most pilots flying jets are high time. Therefore, most accidents are caused by high time pilots. Get it? Huh? What? Even though we see concentrations of 350 hour backpack-having-spikey-haired wonderbrats, there are still, thankfully, less of these pilots than the salt-and-pepper crowd in the command of jets. Therefore, not that many accidents are from low timers, and half of that is attributable to a good airplane like a CRJ saving their a$$e$. Now look at the kinds of mistakes low timers make...many are unique to their experience level. Period. You're so ignorant of the fact that experience is extremely valuable...awww, forget it. You are a low timer yourself, so naturally you want to think that you are as good as anyone else. Someday you might get it, if you stay in aviation long enough.

 

[Cokie907]

I wasn't going to post until I read the absolute tripe from Flex 20. In support of Rich (Lear 70), we sat alot of reserve together (3 years to be exact) and he is an intelligent, articulate, highly skilled aviator who knows his stuff big time. I'd challenge ANYONE to go up against him in a battle of the aviation wits. Furthermore, I NEVER, EVER heard any FO say anything negative about his CRM skills or derogatory in general, for that matter.

The facts are plain and simple, Pinnacle does have problems with its management exploiting an extremely weak contract. When you're a very junior CA or FO, this can and will wreak havoc with your life. Simply put, you will have no life for about 9 months as an FO and about 5 plus years as a CA. (Last month, I had 11 days home as a 5 year captain.)

If you would like to come to Pinnacle, please determine which you value more, money or your life. As a 9 month plus FO, you will have no money but will have the ability to jumpseat and hold an ok schedule. Once you make captain, you can forget about doing anything unless you live in base, BUT YOU WILL HAVE MONEY! HA HA

Also, keep in mind that our future is ENTIRELY up in the air. Yes, the pun is intended.

 

[PCL_128]

the reason people have to be junior manned is when we are short on pilots. And its tough getting people to come to the airline when they think it has such a bad rep. Why would you want to discurage people to come here when we need people. Wouldn't more people help out with our scheduling issues?

We are short on pilots because the company pays our first and second year FOs so horribly that virtually no one can afford to work here. Not to mention the terrible QOL. If the company needs more pilots (and they desperately do), then they need to quickly sign an acceptable new CBA that addresses these issues and makes this place a livable place to work. Until then, I will tell people the truth about this company so they don't come in blind.

Once again, I will tell you what i always tell you. If you don't like it, leave!!!!

And I'll tell you what I always tell you: I'd rather try to fix things. Perhaps defeatism is in your nature, but it doesn't work for me.

 

[EMB Skillz]

Compared to GIA, where you have to pay them to fly, it must be paradise at PCL.

 

[blackbox]

The facts are plain and simple, Pinnacle does have problems with its management exploiting an extremely weak contract. When you're a very junior CA or FO, this can and will wreak havoc with your life. Simply put, you will have no life for about 9 months as an FO and about 5 plus years as a CA. (Last month, I had 11 days home as a 5 year captain.)

If you would like to come to Pinnacle, please determine which you value more, money or your life. As a 9 month plus FO, you will have no money but will have the ability to jumpseat and hold an ok schedule. Once you make captain, you can forget about doing anything unless you live in base, BUT YOU WILL HAVE MONEY! HA HA

Also, keep in mind that our future is ENTIRELY up in the air. Yes, the pun is intended.

But 9 month example is true at any airline. If anythign, you will probably get a line faster here than at most other airlines. getting off reserve and holding a line= better QOL.

WHen you talk about last month are you referring to April? the lines were horrible in APril. But you have to admit May was lot better.

and when you mention 5 year capt? hey at least your capt. in 5 years, Try and look for a 5 yr capt at American Eagle or Horizon. Did you get hired as a street captain? So you had to sit reserve, thats the price of admission. And no matter where you work, reserve sucks. Its not limited only to pinnacle.

I

 

[blackbox]

Compared to GIA, where you have to pay them to fly, it must be paradise at PCL.

EMB skills, You change your handle to IhatePCL128. Y do you have such hard on for PCL 128? So he went to GIA. I think thats a scumbag outfit, but I aint gonna hate on someone who went there. Especially not like the effort you put forth. You need to lay off him. Even in posts that has nothing to do with him, you make a comment about GIA/PCL128. On second thought you should change your name to IneedaLife

 

[Cokie907]

Blackbox, Who ya trying to fool there buddy? Please spare us your platitudes such as "price of admission" and "no matter where ya work, reserve sucks". It has been said that you judge the quality of an airline by how it treats its reserves. Well by that criteria, Pinnacle is sittin' beneath the blue juice my friend. Imagine sitting around, doing airport reserve week after week and always getting extended on day 5 (after sitting for 4 days and watching junior people get called out BEFORE you when you were marked call first). How much extra pay do you get for the extension on day 5? ZERO! I could go on and on, suffice to say that reserve is far worse at PCL than it is at other regionals (besides Mesa and Trans States), I've compared notes over 3 years of sitting it, trust me!

You also said that people here will get a line faster than at other airlines, now why do you think that is? Perhaps it could be because attrition is occurring at breakneck speed. In fact, it could be likened to a revolving door for FO's as of late, would you not agree? What is causing this attrition?

Oh yeah and another thing. You stated that May was alot better. Why should ANY month be ALOT better. At a GOOD regional airline, ALL months should be good schedules, right? April was HORRIBLE and so was March and February and January...yadda yadda yadda....

 

[blackbox]

Cokie, i was fortunate enough not to have sat airport reserve. And for while they got rid of it all together. NOw they have it, but its only for late reserve, which is only 4 hours. Also our reserve periods are 12 hours long, wher other airlines are 13-15 hours. I do agree that you do get abused when you are on reserve. But as a new FO, wouldnt you rather fly than sit in a crashpad? I have only been extended once, and the second time they tried to, I denied it. This was before the extension LOA came out, so i had to see the base manager. This was less than a month after IOE. haha.

I did say we get a line faster here, for whatever the reason. I know its due to attrition, but as a reserve pilot, why would u care?? u hold a line.

that last line is what gets me most. instead of seeing the lines as improve ment you ask "ALL months should be good schedules, right?" Maybe you think the airline is a lot worse than it actually is because you want to percieve it that way.

As for me, what gets me most is second year FO pay. first year, well it sucks at almost all airlines except Horizon. But I will leave that to the negotiating committee and cross my fingers hoping for a huge raise. Until then I just go about my job trying to enjoy it as much as I can. As a line holder, I come into work, fly for a few days and go back home. Dont ever see the CP or base manager, dont deal with scheduling, jsut check in, grab my flight case and I am out of OPs. How much different is that than if i flew for Skywest, AWAC, or ASA? I just havent been screwed by scheduling or the company as some others might have, so thats why it easier for me keep a positive outlook. I know this place has more than its share of problems. The just havent affected me yet.

its all what you make of it. I dont drink the Pinnacle Kool-aid, but I dont drink the Flightinfo Haterade either.

 

[Raskal]

Your analogy of medical doctors is almost laughable. Have you ever asked the surgeon operating on you how many people s/he has operated on before? Being a professional pilot, even if you’re with the best major (whatever that is) or the best corporate flight department, most likely your health insurance would only allow you to see the cheapest form of medical practice: the top-of-the-class graduates (the smartest and ones with most experienced) are working in very expensive Private clinics. In plain English, you’re most likely being operated on by the bottom-of-the-class-graduate surgeons.


Bunny

All right bunny, I've been reading this thread trying to skip your off-subject replies but now you've gone way past the delusional line. As someone who has a child that has gone through a couple of very difficult surguries I find the analogy to surgeons dead-on accurate. Yes, a good question for any surgeon is "how many of this specific procedure have you done?". Contrary to your obviously ignorant (or maybe inexperienced is a better term) the answer you get will be honest and often a reccomendation will follow if the doc doesn't feel he/she is the best qualified for the procedure. I also speak from the perspective of having two surgeons in the family.

Experience does involve quantity. Stick ability itself doesn't neccesarily come from hours, but the capability of handling situations safely and efficiently does. Your ability to land an aircraft is only a little part of your job and to view it any other way exposes, yet again, a lack of experience.

Oh, and you may want to rethink the military analogy. In WWII, as you mention, most of the young kids died. It was only the ones who luckily gained "experience" that survived. The military has no qualms about using teenagers for fodder, often they have no choice. Aviation operators, regardless of field, do have a choice and because they intelligently choose to exercise it shouldn't be offensive to you. It should be somewhat comforting.

 

[Detroitpilot22]

Another thing about pinnacle, if you just suck it up on reserve and deal with the crappy stuff, when you get a line, it is a big difference. If you have a schedule that doesn't quite meet your needs, and you are respectable with the schedulers, they will try and find something that works for you. You can drop/swap with open trips, or with other pilots to maybe get a better schedule.

 

[bertengineer]

I am a FO for Pinnacle and I have one thing to say.....

Damn glad to be here!

 

[bertengineer]

I am a FO for Pinnacle and I have one thing to say.....

dang glad to be here!

I didn't say dang...

 

[rballty]

Does anyone have information on the process for obtaining a waiver for entry into Canada if you have certain convictions on your record? I just received an interview invitation, but I have a conviction on my record that looks like I need a waiver for entry into Canada. Does this process take a while? I thought I read somewhere that it could take up to one year? Any information someone can provide is extremely appreciated. Thanks.

 

[uberbored]

Stay away from pinncale, it is a crap hole, seriously it really is, you don't want to work there.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

ubernospeakenglish

 

[uberbored]

ubernospeakenglish

you are a dumba$$

 

[CrownandCoke]

Got an email from them. "Come to our job seminar if you have 350TT." Just curious but how much good is a 350 hour pilot when the crap hits the fan?

I got hired with 560. I did the CRJ program at UND, and that was a huge turn on for them. So far, it seems like a good company, I definitely have no complaints thus far. I hear a lot of whining pilots, but I figure it's a lot better here than other places.