Pinnacle to start "alter-ego" airline?

[80for80]

According to this months Air Transport World, Pinnacle is "pursuing a seperate cetificate in order to launch an alter-ego airline to pursue feeder oppurtunities with other majors". Is this why they are still hiring even though the Northwest flying is shrinking? Are they going to transfer excess pilots from Pinnacle to the new alter-ego or will they hire off the street to staff it?

 

[PCL_128]

There will be no "alter-ego" airline. Pinnacle has been developing this second certificate for several years now, and they've still got a little ways to go before it's done. Even then, they are required to use Pinnacle seniority list pilots to fly for this new certificate:

From the PCL CBA, Section 1.B.4 -

The Company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of
transferring the assets of the Company to such airline and avoiding its
obligations to the pilots of the Company under this Agreement.​

 

[80for80]

There will be no "alter-ego" airline. Pinnacle has been developing this second certificate for several years now, and they've still got a little ways to go before it's done. Even then, they are required to use Pinnacle seniority list pilots to fly for this new certificate:

From the PCL CBA, Section 1.B.4 -

The Company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of​

transferring the assets of the Company to such airline and avoiding its
obligations to the pilots of the Company under this Agreement.​

You are a fool. Actually, you were a fool before posting this. Who says they have to transfer assets of pinnacle to the new company? What's to stop them from starting up operations with entirely new (non pinnacle) equipment? They will start up an alter-ego company like TSA did. The toothpaste is already out of the tube!

 

[DoinTime]

Now try reading 1.B.1-3:

B. SCOPE

1. Except as provided in subsections B.2. and B.3., below, all present and future flying of any form performed by or for the Company will be performed by pilots on the Pilots’ System Seniority List in accordance with the terms and conditions of the Agreement. The phrase “present and future flying of any form performed by or for the Company” includes without limitation all such flying (1) on the Company’s aircraft (whether leased or owned), or (2) under the Company’s operational control, including wet leases and contracting for other carriers or entities (government, military or commercial), but does not include dry leases to other carrier or entities.

2. Notwithstanding subsection B.1., above, the Company may assign, wet lease or contract out present or future flying for a period of nine (9) months during the term of this Agreement if (1) such conduct is necessary to accomplish the needs of service of the Company, and (2) the Company does not have sufficient aircraft and pilots to perform such flying. The Company will notify the MEC Chairman prior to executing the assignment, subcontracting or wet lease agreement. No pilot will be furloughed during any assignment, subcontracting or wet leasing.

3. Notwithstanding subsection B.1., above, the Company may (1) use non-seniority list pilots in connection with aircraft transactions and (2) use manufacturer’s pilots to currently qualify the initial cadre of instructors and check airmen on a new aircraft type. Initial cadre means a sufficient number of instructors and check airmen to train and qualify pilots for the arriving fleet.

 

[DoinTime]

According to this months Air Transport World, Pinnacle is "pursuing a seperate cetificate in order to launch an alter-ego airline to pursue feeder oppurtunities with other majors". Is this why they are still hiring even though the Northwest flying is shrinking? Are they going to transfer excess pilots from Pinnacle to the new alter-ego or will they hire off the street to staff it?

PCL has been "working" on this new certificate for a couple years now and they are no where close to being done. They have also said that the program has been dormant since the NW bankruptcy filing.

 

[D-Bo]

You are a fool. Actually, you were a fool before posting this.

Now that was funny.

 

[kmox29]

There will be no "alter-ego" airline. Pinnacle has been developing this second certificate for several years now, and they've still got a little ways to go before it's done. Even then, they are required to use Pinnacle seniority list pilots to fly for this new certificate...

Don't worry, they'll find a way around that. Got a holdings company?

 

[80for80]

Don't worry, they'll find a way around that. Got a holdings company?

Exactly!!!! Pinnacle holdings LOL!

 

[PCL_128]

Don't worry, they'll find a way around that. Got a holdings company?

ALPA Legal has studied the entire Section 1 of the agreement, and they are relatively confident that the scope language will hold up and prevent any sort of "alter-ego" like we've seen at Freedom or GoJet.

 

[80for80]

ALPA Legal has studied the entire Section 1 of the agreement, and they are relatively confident that the scope language will hold up and prevent any sort of "alter-ego" like we've seen at Freedom or GoJet.

HAHA, ALPA legal. That's an oxymoron like regional pilots that work for a DOT "major" airline! Mesa and TSA found ways around ALPA legal. I'm sure Pinnacle will too!

 

[jtf]

I seem to recall similar language in the Trans States contract. Hopefully if they try this crap ALPA national will actually throw some resources their way and try a little harder than they did for Trans States. I truly wish you guys the best, but Northwest and their cohorts are some seriously evil business people who have a history of doing everything in their power to cut their employees throats and line their own pockets.

 

[labbats]

If you guys believe anything this 80for80 tries to stir up, you're just adding fodder to my flightinfo blooper reel.


Why don't I just start over a new account and post wild rumors that people will undoubtedly repeat and freak out about. Oh wait, it's already been done ad nauseum on this site.

 

[80for80]

If you guys believe anything this 80for80 tries to stir up, you're just adding fodder to my flightinfo blooper reel.


Why don't I just start over a new account and post wild rumors that people will undoubtedly repeat and freak out about. Oh wait, it's already been done ad nauseum on this site.

Not a rumor moron. Read it for yourself in this month's Air Transport World you fool.

 

[another cfii]

Not a rumor moron. Read it for yourself in this month's Air Transport World you fool.

I think if you start using words other than "fool" or "moron" and stop using any tone that your mom would not approve, your credibility will go up.

But seriously, I think 9E has a lot more to worry about than this alter-ego airline, i.e. our RFP with NW and pilot contract.

 

[temcgrew]

HAHA, ALPA legal. That's an oxymoron like regional pilots that work for a DOT "major" airline! Mesa and TSA found ways around ALPA legal. I'm sure Pinnacle will too!

ALPA legal advised us at TSA to vote YES if we wanted the flying. In the pinnacle contract language, what is defined as "the company"?

Our contract said "all flying done by trans states airline will be done by pilots on the Trans States Airlines seniority list". Then they whipped out the holding company that even our great MEC didn't know about.

The contract we voted down changed the language to "Trans States Holdings" so we would be assured to keep any more growth. Unfortunately there were some landmines in place that 75% of our guys didn't want to walk thru.

 

[Smarta$$]

ALPA legal advised us at TSA to vote YES if we wanted the flying. In the pinnacle contract language, what is defined as "the company"?

Our contract said "all flying done by trans states airline will be done by pilots on the Trans States Airlines seniority list". Then they whipped out the holding company that even our great MEC didn't know about.

The contract we voted down changed the language to "Trans States Holdings" so we would be assured to keep any more growth. Unfortunately there were some landmines in place that 75% of our guys didn't want to walk thru.

My copy of the TSA contract says "the company". Same as pinnacles says "the company". I believe it is a very real threat. I know for a fact that Pinnacle management is demanding to not have scope protecting the pilots in there current negotiations.

Pinnacle pilots may have alot on there plate to deal with right now, but that may be the perfect time for management to try to pull that sh!t on the pilots.

All I can say is fight to the death on this issue.

 

[temcgrew]

I'm glad YOUR copy of the TSA contract says "the company", it's still the definition that rules and ruined us.

Keep fighting to the death, how many casualties until they get you?

 

[arthompson]

The only people that know whats being asked for is management negotiators and union negotiators and the privlaged few beyond that. Most people inside PCL don't know whats going on, I doubt that someone outside the company has any clue.

 

[JoeMerchant]

There will be no "alter-ego" airline. Pinnacle has been developing this second certificate for several years now, and they've still got a little ways to go before it's done. Even then, they are required to use Pinnacle seniority list pilots to fly for this new certificate:

From the PCL CBA, Section 1.B.4 -

The Company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of

transferring the assets of the Company to such airline and avoiding its
obligations to the pilots of the Company under this Agreement.​

PCL,
1. What is the definition of "company"?

2. What happens if no assets are transferred?

 

[temcgrew]

The Company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of

transferring the assets of the Company to such airline and avoiding its
obligations to the pilots of the Company under this Agreement

All they have to do is find another PURPOSE and they are around it. TSH didn't start g0jet for the purpose of getting around using the TSA pilots, it was because of the AA scope. But in the end, they did avoid using us.

 

[kmox29]

ALPA Legal has studied the entire Section 1 of the agreement, and they are relatively confident that the scope language will hold up and prevent any sort of "alter-ego" like we've seen at Freedom or GoJet.

Please don't be completely ignorant.

Just post the part that says when PCL management sells the operating certificate to the holdings company, your "scope" will protect you.

Have you learned nothing from Mesaba?

 

[redflyer65]

80for80,

I don't care where you got your information. Its only about 10 months old. Its like your trying to start a riot where one doesn't exsist. Read PCL's post again.

Pinnacle management was trying to jump through the hoops for a second certificate but were still along way from completing that goal when Northwest filed for bankruptcy. The issue has been dead since Sept. 2005. End of story.

Even PCL management has said they are not actively persuing it anymore.

 

[Flybet3]

You are a fool. Actually, you were a fool before posting this. Who says they have to transfer assets of pinnacle to the new company? What's to stop them from starting up operations with entirely new (non pinnacle) equipment? They will start up an alter-ego company like TSA did. The toothpaste is already out of the tube!

Sounds like we'vd got another bitter TSA loser.

 

[Smarta$$]

arthompson, why dont you tell us your feelings on alter ego certificates at pinnacle. I have a feeling that you dont think that the pinnacle pilots are entitled to be on a single pilot list.

 

[arthompson]

I never said anything about PCL and alter ego's and yes I do believe in one list or at the very least seperate represented carriers (CAL, and Eastern were seperate operating carriers of the Texas Air Corporation, World Air Group has seperate carriers in North American and World) with protections against one being used against the other.

Now for what I don't believe in. I don't believe in some dumba$$ that has no idea whats going on inside of PCL or the PCL MEC saying that he knows for a fact whats being asked for by PCL management for PCL's contract.

 

[Smarta$$]

I never said anything about PCL and alter ego's and yes I do believe in one list or at the very least seperate represented carriers (CAL, and Eastern were seperate operating carriers of the Texas Air Corporation, World Air Group has seperate carriers in North American and World) with protections against one being used against the other.

Now for what I don't believe in. I don't believe in some dumba$$ that has no idea whats going on inside of PCL or the PCL MEC saying that he knows for a fact whats being asked for by PCL management for PCL's contract.

Dont go after the source, find out the facts and then say it is not true. Come to think of it, you never did say that it WAS NOT TRUE. Just that I sould not know about it.