Pinnacle Outlook

[CRJ_Driver]

How does Pinnacle look right now? Aren't they about done taking deliveries of new RJ's and isn't NWA looking for another regional carrier?


1. Upgrade to the left seat?
2. What aircraft are newbies getting hired into?
3. What base(s) is likely for newbies?
4. Days off?
5. How is contract overall, but especially for reserve?
6. How easy is it to drop trips there...I only like to fly about 2-3 four day trips/mth and that is it.


Thanks.

 

[DoinTime]

How does Pinnacle look right now? Aren't they about done taking deliveries of new RJ's and isn't NWA looking for another regional carrier?


1. Upgrade to the left seat?
2. What aircraft are newbies getting hired into?
3. What base(s) is likely for newbies?
4. Days off?
5. How is contract overall, but especially for reserve?
6. How easy is it to drop trips there...I only like to fly about 2-3 four day trips/mth and that is it.


Thanks.

1) Currently, only a few months if not right out of training (if qualified)
2) CRJ, only aircraft in fleet
3) DTW, MEM, MSP
4) Min days off 10, average line holder 13-14
5) Generally weak, even worse for reserves. Contract negotiations are starting.
6) Good luck finding a part-time 121 gig.

 

[CRJ_Driver]

Follow up Q's

Here come the follow ups.


What are Captain upgrade requirements and why are upgrades so fast? I understand you have about 105 aircraft and about 35 more to come. How are year or less seniority pilots upgrading?

And pertaining to a part time 121 gig. How easy is it to drop trips.

At IA now and running the risk of getting furloughed if we let go another 10-30 a/c. At IA, it's practically impossible to drop a trip, unless its a day trip and then someone picks it up. Never dropped by the company.


Lastly, I'm still waiting out the good/bad news to come in JAN for us IA pilots....but would you leave Independence for Pinnacle?

Thanks.

 

[DoinTime]

What are Captain upgrade requirements and why are upgrades so fast? I understand you have about 105 aircraft and about 35 more to come. How are year or less seniority pilots upgrading?

I believe we have 117 aircraft with another 22 more coming.

We have a pretty shady hireing program with Gulfstream. Most of our new hires in the past couple years have been guys with around 500 hours TT. Its not that we don't have any FO's, we just don't have many that have the qualifications for upgrade (3500 TT, reducible to 3000TT with 500 in type at PCL).

And pertaining to a part time 121 gig. How easy is it to drop trips.

Contractually, you can drop down to 67 hours on the month depending on crew availability. If there is no availabilty they won't let you drop. Staffing has been very tight lately but its always fluctuating.

...but would you leave Independence for Pinnacle?

If you can afford to be unemployed then wait out your fulough at IA. If not, your probably be looking for a new job. Pinnacle isn't all bad.

 

[I.P. Freley]

My FO today tells me that you are hiring street captains. I won't make the switch myself, but I'm curious, is that true?

 

[Lear70]

We'll know soon enough. Vacancy 04-11 closed with 12 alternates (guys who will probably be upgrading on the next vacancy) - the most junior "alternate" was seniority # 992 - a simulator instructor - end of the food chain for upgrades. Rumor has it the sim instructors would NOT be coming to the line, just getting seniority numbers so they could do initial PC's and Line Checks (must be done by seniority list pilots per contract). Lots of senior Check Airmen pissed about this one but that's a different story).

Vacancy 04-12 is closing tomorrow, INITIAL results due 5 days later. The initial bid was for 34 Captains. If I was a betting man (and I am), I'd say this latest SNAFU over the holidays will INCREASE their staffing requirements and we'll be anouncing several secondary increases to around the 40-44 range. What does this mean in English?

12 Available Captain upgrades last month.
10 more (probably) F/O's submitted upgrade requests who now hold the time.

12+10 = 22. 34 MINIMUM needed. 12 Captain slots unfilled and will read NHT (New Hire Trainee) on the final vacancy. I'll be VERY surprised if it's not more like 20 NHT slots. That means street captains. Everyone knows it, no one wants to admit it.

Dropping a trip? Good fu*king luck. After last week's crew shortage Scheduling and Planning are going to be thinking "catastrophe" when they think about letting a pilot have an extra day off.

2 or 3 days of work? Not at this company. You can't drop below 67 hours of flying and here that's an average of 14 or so days at work MINIMUM, and that's if you hold a good line.

Oh, that 13 - 14 day off average is only good for the F/O side of the house since it moves so fast. There are 4 and 5 year Captains here who can't get more than 12 days off a month. I'm one of them.

Good flight time, good co-workers, bad management practices and resultingly low morale with negotiations starting = 3 more years of b*tching and moaning. Wait, that's just like every other airline.

Good luck!

 

[keatts]

How long to get a call for an interview? Submitted my resume about 2 weeks ago. 2300tt 300me no 4 year.. and currently only have a class 2. I'm holding out on the class 1 until I actually need it. Will it preclude me from getting a call?

thanks

Keatts

 

[I.P. Freley]

Good flight time, good co-workers, bad management practices and resultingly low morale with negotiations starting = 3 more years of b*tching and moaning. Wait, that's just like every other airline.

I still don't "get it", I guess... Why your FO's wouldn't jump at their first chance to upgrade. I know sittin' RSV sucks, and you'll have no control over your schedule for a while, but if you bid for a slot NOW you have a better chance at getting holidays off NEXT year. Not to mention mo' money, PIC time, and so on and so forth. It's a big step back in taking control of your life, but what, sit for another year in the right seat so you'll go straight from a good schedule to a slightly-better-than-an-average-new-captain-schedule?

 

[727RedTails]

I spent 3 weeks on reserve as a DTW CA in Oct., since then I have held a build up line, and I took the first available upgrade at Pinnacle. 95% of the fo's I fly with don't have the flight time to upgrade that's why they aren't upgrading.

 

[d328pilot]

How much longer do you think they will be putting new hires into the left seat. Not thrilled about starting over at a new airline, but a good chance at the left seat might make it worth it. Pinnacle would be much more stable that the current airline...

 

[I.P. Freley]

Hey, I LOVE sitting reserve and I far exceed the minimums to be a Captain. Maybe I'll send over a resume.

The FO's don't have the time to upgrade? I'd think that most FO's who've been on the line for two years would meet the mins... Assuming a 1300-1500hr new-hire flying 750hrs/yr or so.

 

[KingAirer]

IP they hire alot of Gulfstream "grads?" so your assumption should be more of 500TTish to start with.

 

[wil]

I.P.- ICAO only counts SIC time at 50%. So, 1000 hours of SIC is only counted as 500 towards your total time requirement for ICAO flying (Canada/Mexico for us "regionals").

We had Brasillia captains at ASA that could not transition to the jet as captains because of the ICAO hour requirements. Cheers- Wil

 

[I.P. Freley]

IP they hire alot of Gulfstream "grads?" so your assumption should be more of 500TTish to start with.

Ah, yes, I had forgotten about that part... Makes more sense now.

 

[Twotter76]

What would the minimums be for a street captain slot?

 

[I.P. Freley]

One could assume it's the same as for upgrade. I'd bet that 3500TT isn't the ONLY requirement. I'd wager that they would require, at least unofficially, prior 121 experience and preferably 121 PIC time. Just meeting the minimums probably isn't enough.

 

[timmay]

One could assume it's the same as for upgrade. I'd bet that 3500TT isn't the ONLY requirement. I'd wager that they would require, at least unofficially, prior 121 experience and preferably 121 PIC time. Just meeting the minimums probably isn't enough.

At Pinnacle meeting the minimums are more than enough.

 

[another cfii]

Nope, 3500 ttl time that's it. That's why they have been soliciting new hires with the total time to take the left-seat ride. It'll be a good few years before they'll be able to hold a line. But if you want the Jet PIC time, sacrificing QOL, come'on over! Our contract is due, and we're getting grumpier by the minute, and dispatch is getting lousier and lousier (When dispatch tells you he's overworked, he can't handle all the complaints It's a tough environment right now, and it's gonna get be interesting for the next few years here at "cynical" airline.

 

[Capn Sac]

Is there still no pay during training? Hotel expenses, per diem, etc.. in training are costs covered by the new employee?? Does it matter if you are hired as a street Captain, will you get paid then? I'm looking for info not starting a war.

Thanks,
Sac

 

[dondk]

We'll know soon enough. Vacancy 04-11 closed with 12 alternates (guys who will probably be upgrading on the next vacancy) - the most junior "alternate" was seniority # 992 - a simulator instructor - end of the food chain for upgrades. Rumor has it the sim instructors would NOT be coming to the line, just getting seniority numbers so they could do initial PC's and Line Checks (must be done by seniority list pilots per contract). Lots of senior Check Airmen pissed about this one but that's a different story).

WTF!!!! Who signed this one? or is this yet another LOA?

Vacancy 04-12 is closing tomorrow, INITIAL results due 5 days later. The initial bid was for 34 Captains. If I was a betting man (and I am), I'd say this latest SNAFU over the holidays will INCREASE their staffing requirements and we'll be anouncing several secondary increases to around the 40-44 range. What does this mean in English?

12 Available Captain upgrades last month.
10 more (probably) F/O's submitted upgrade requests who now hold the time.

12+10 = 22. 34 MINIMUM needed. 12 Captain slots unfilled and will read NHT (New Hire Trainee) on the final vacancy. I'll be VERY surprised if it's not more like 20 NHT slots. That means street captains. Everyone knows it, no one wants to admit it.

Dropping a trip? Good fu*king luck. After last week's crew shortage Scheduling and Planning are going to be thinking "catastrophe" when they think about letting a pilot have an extra day off.

2 or 3 days of work? Not at this company. You can't drop below 67 hours of flying and here that's an average of 14 or so days at work MINIMUM, and that's if you hold a good line.

Oh, that 13 - 14 day off average is only good for the F/O side of the house since it moves so fast. There are 4 and 5 year Captains here who can't get more than 12 days off a month. I'm one of them.

Good flight time, good co-workers, bad management practices and resultingly low morale with negotiations starting = 3 more years of b*tching and moaning. Wait, that's just like every other airline.

Good luck!

Everything else Lear70 is as accurate as you can get.. 3-4 day trips at this place goes to either the super senior or the super junior (the junior are 4-5 day trips).

We have some mid seniority guy's/gals that just don't want to come over to the left seat. Giving up 15+ days to go down to 12 or less is just a bit too much for some. A few others are just not old enough for the ATP too. Finally, a few others are just "lazy", have the time, but no desire to get the written done or haven't cracked a book since intial. Does not help that the washout rate varies from month to month.. 35% was the last class...

 

[Lear70]

Last time they hired street Captains it was pre-9/11 and they were taking anyone with the CA minimums with preference given to guys who had previous 121 Jet Command time. Part 135 Jet Command time was also given some consideration as long as they had Part 121 experience in there somewhere.

Don't know what they're "looking" for right now; for all I know BR or DW hasn't given them the bad news about no upgrades to fill CA vacancies - when I mentioned it to TM (chief pilot) in a pilot forum and showed him the vacancies and he did the math quickly he was a little irritated they hadn't told him to start expecting CA interviews but agreed that there was nowhere else to get them from.

The left hand hear NEVER knows what the right hand is doing until we're already behind the curve and have to play "catch-up" - the management style here is very "reactionary" rather than "proactive".

As far as the instructor thing goes, I only know the generalities - haven't studied that part of the contract - but there is a limitation that only line pilots / check airmen may give certain types of checkrides - I believe initial and recurrent P.C.'s, line checks, etc. The company started wilfully violating that provision and had the "professional instructors" hired from other airlines (furloughed Delta guys etc) giving these checks so the Association grieved it. (I find it VERY INTERESTING how this grievance came to be heard almost IMMEDIATELY and bypassed ALL the other grievances on file, including other MEC grievances - I guess it affected the most senior guys so it got more attention, but that's an argument for another time).

The grievance was won in arbitration, but if the sim instructors are put on the seniority list (they have been) and are awarded Captain positions (they will be on the next vacancy) it gets around this provision and these line instructors will be doing those checks again. The only way I can see getting around it is grieving the fact that they aren't flying at least 67 hours but I'm not sure that would hold any water... That's just what I've "heard" on it from the grievance guys.

 

[DoinTime]

As far as the instructor thing goes, I only know the generalities - haven't studied that part of the contract - but there is a limitation that only line pilots / check airmen may give certain types of checkrides - I believe initial and recurrent P.C.'s, line checks, etc. The company started wilfully violating that provision and had the "professional instructors" hired from other airlines (furloughed Delta guys etc) giving these checks so the Association grieved it. (I find it VERY INTERESTING how this grievance came to be heard almost IMMEDIATELY and bypassed ALL the other grievances on file, including other MEC grievances - I guess it affected the most senior guys so it got more attention, but that's an argument for another time).

The grievance was won in arbitration, but if the sim instructors are put on the seniority list (they have been) and are awarded Captain positions (they will be on the next vacancy) it gets around this provision and these line instructors will be doing those checks again. The only way I can see getting around it is grieving the fact that they aren't flying at least 67 hours but I'm not sure that would hold any water... That's just what I've "heard" on it from the grievance guys.

Some of the pro-instructors are being allowed to bid on seniority numbers but its not the conspiracy that you think. After that arbitration award was implemented there was a surplus of instructors due to the increase in seniority list pilots needed to cover the PT's. Some of these instructors were faced with a furlough or a spot on the seniority list as a new hire. Some took the offer.

There is one member of management whose award of a new hire position is most likely an attempt to circumvent this contractual provision, however, before being able to do evaluations he has to have served his entire probation period. At that point we have done all we can. He is then a fully protected seniority list member and should management put pressure on him to do the unethical he has the option of returning to line flying. That's the only protection we have from anyone management chooses to be an APD.

Lear, your comment on the origins of this grievance could not be further from the truth. This grievance was filed years ago and it swam in the arbitration pool longer than most.

 

[flyinglow]

Just Curious.

This agreement with Gulf Stream, what is it? Does GIA pay Pinnacle sounds kind of shady? How come you don't hear the Pinnacle bashing like you do with CHQ and MESA. You hear all the GIA bashing, you would think it would filter over to Pinnacle. It is too bad regionals can't pay better. With thousands of furloughed experienced pilots, the only ones you can get are GIA people.

Also sounds kind of scary that the check airmen, and sim instructors who issue certificates are so inexperienced. Why is the FAA allowing this kind of thing. Not trying to flame but just my observation.

 

[flyinglow]

What I meant to say is. Shouldn't an airline hire pilots to be captains, and not PFT scum. Sorry it had to be said.

 

[flyinglow]

Also, how do I get in on this street captain scam?

 

[T-Gates]

Also, how do I get in on this street captain scam?

Just call up Memphis and ask about the "Street Captain Scam"....

 

[Lear70]

What I meant to say is. Shouldn't an airline hire pilots to be captains, and not PFT scum. Sorry it had to be said.

Yes they should, but like I said, our company isn't exactly the most forward-thinking in the industry. That said, I'm sure you don't really intend to come here, but if you do, please check the attitude at the door. I detest PFT as well but I keep it to myself unless someone ELSE brings it up in discussion to me. Creating rancor in the cockpit isn't the basis of good CRM.

'Time', thanks for the additional info on the instructor deal. Like I had said, I wasn't an expert on that and hadn't done the research and if the instructors on that vacancy REALLY ARE coming to the line, then good for them, as long as they aren't going to continue doing checks - there are lots of senior guys who want to do that and it should go to the most senior person who meets the criteria and wants it.

That said, I don't agree with your assessment of the grievance because the facts just don't add up. We weren't using pro instructors at this company until 2002; they were all line guys and I remember when they went through the roof because the company booted them all back to the line and hired the pro instructor cadre. That means the grievance over this couldn't have been filed until mid- to late- 2002 and it was heard mid-2004, somewhere in the 18-24 month range.

I have 16 open grievances, some of them are MEC grievances that date back to the first few months I was online that I was included in and 3 others that I filed between June and October of 2002. NONE of those have been heard, making them 3 - 4 years in the pipeline. I just find it interesting which cases get fast-tracked and which ones don't.

I also find it "aggregious, capricious, and totally unacceptable" (Trademark JH) that new-hires are coming online after getting their first union "welcome talk" during training and are being openly told not to expect much from our upcoming contract. Dumbing down expectations does not only us, but the entire aviation community a HUGE disservice.

That, among other reasons, is why I do my own thing here: I fight my own battles with management, prefering to take another pilot as a witness to a management meeting than an MEC committee member unless SE, GY, or GB are available, asking SE (the grievance committee chairman) to make the grievance process open to me as an individual to fight MY OWN grievances so the MEC can't intervene and screw it up, then flying my trips and going home to work on my own private business so I can turn this career into more of a HOBBY, because at the rate we're going, we're certainly not going to get anywhere NEAR where we should be in terms of compensation and QOL.

This industry is well into the "slide to hell" and unless it's going to pay 6 figures by year 10 as a Captain AT GUARANTEE (not 90+ hours), I'm just not interested in letting it be my primary income stream.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Not trying to flame but just my observation.

Well when you use phrases like:

PFT scum

...it comes off EXACTLY like a flame job.

But anyway, as for this:

How come you don't hear the Pinnacle bashing like you do with CHQ and MESA. You hear all the GIA bashing, you would think it would filter over to Pinnacle.

That's a very, very good question. The only thing people seem to get all ticked off about when it comes to Pinnacle is the "no pay during training" thing. Well, that and the pilots that are already there suggest that the washout rate during upgrade is abnormally high, but that's just my impression.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I am just a tad over 100 hours from having my time for upgrade..hopefully the next vacancy I'll be able to bid for captain.

I flew 984 and some change company hours last year... and about 25 non company hours (going up with friends and the like).... hard to top 1013 hours in a year! This is with having IOE in January, and sitting reserve in Feb and March...

Going from holding a nice 95 hour line with 14-15 days off to sitting reserve isn't my definition of fun..but the pay increase (over double since I'll just be going into my second year pay on Jan 4) and getting PIC time so i can go to FedEx or the like is the goal.. sitting right seat just doesnt get me toward my goal. Being an FO doesnt exactly tickle my fancy unless im getting paid at least 75+K a year, anyways.

Pinnacle is a good means to an end..but it doesnt change the fact that it IS a regional airline. Management is cheap, has very very poor foresight with flight operations..and does anything to save a dime. Negotiations will likely last quite a while...management and the pilot group are very far apart on what they want.

 

[BackSoon05]

Not EVERYBODY hired at PNCL is a 'streamer. About 5 out of 30 in the Dec. 6th class are experienced....rumor is the new classes (17 Jan and later) have more experienced guys. Maybe GIA is running out of F/O's. I think there will be a few guys from this fall who might go INH, IOE, Reserve for 2 months, and on the upgrade list. Its going to be a LONG couple of years on reserve though. I'm not going to P#@# in the well, so I'll keep my PFT opinions to myself...