Pinnacle Attrition and Lower Minimums

[accinelli]

Rumor is that Pinnacle has been affected by attrition so much so that they will be lowering minimums. For those at Pinnacle can you see this in the amounts of open time being offered?

 

[fly4ever]

How can their mins get any lower? Don't they still hire you if you have a cpl and a heartbeat or is that the new minimum?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

They are now hiring dead bodies.

 

[jc3]

I went back to my old flightschool and saw some of my old CFI buddies. One got hired at Comair with 600/50, another ASA 550/100, and another at Eagle with 600/100. Everywhere is hiring at low mins.

 

[dingo222]

anna nicole could get hired right now

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I just went to the Pinnacle site and checked their official mins:
HS Diploma
Class I physical
Commerical
Multi
Inst

NO hours of any kind are listed as mins.

cliff
YIP

PS-I know a guy, over age 60, who never even applied at Pinnacle who was emailed with an interview invite!!!

 

[Flyer1015]

Hi!

I just went to the Pinnacle site and checked their official mins:
HS Diploma
Class I physical
Commerical
Multi
Inst

NO hours of any kind are listed as mins.

cliff
YIP

PS-I know a guy, over age 60, who never even applied at Pinnacle who was emailed with an interview invite!!!

What website did you go to?



http://www.nwairlink.com/pilot_listing.htm

Minimum Hiring Requirements:
• 1000 hours total flight time (Preferred)
• 200 hours multi-engine time (Preferred)
• 100 hours instrument (max 20 hours simulator - Preferred)
• Part 121 Operation Experience (Preferred)
• Commercial pilot certificate with a multi-engine airplane and instrument rating
• ATP or ATP-Written
• Current First class medical with First Class Privileges
• Valid passport
• Valid driver's license
• FCC license
• Legally authorized to work in the United States
• Minimum age 21
• High school diploma

 

[mcjohn]

What kind of attrition? Top of the list or bottom?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What website did you go to?



http://www.nwairlink.com/pilot_listing.htm

Minimum Hiring Requirements:
• 1000 hours total flight time (Preferred)
• 200 hours multi-engine time (Preferred)
• 100 hours instrument (max 20 hours simulator - Preferred)
• Part 121 Operation Experience (Preferred)
• Commercial pilot certificate with a multi-engine airplane and instrument rating
• ATP or ATP-Written
• Current First class medical with First Class Privileges
• Valid passport
• Valid driver's license
• FCC license
• Legally authorized to work in the United States
• Minimum age 21
• High school diploma

Yup seeing as how those times all have "(Preferred)" next to them, that tells me they would like to see that but will gladly take less if needed. I'd bet if mgmt would improve pay and conditions a bit they'd have guys beating down the doors.... but you get what you pay for.... in Pinnacle's case, it's not much.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

What kind of attrition? Top of the list or bottom?

Both ends and everything in between, 20 to 30 captains a month for a while now.

 

[Flyprdu]

When I went to interview, I saw them turn away at least half of the applicants. They seemed to be breathing okay to me.

 

[Smarta$$]

What website did you go to?



http://www.nwairlink.com/pilot_listing.htm

Minimum Hiring Requirements:
• 1000 hours total flight time (Preferred)
• 200 hours multi-engine time (Preferred)
• 100 hours instrument (max 20 hours simulator - Preferred)
• Part 121 Operation Experience (Preferred)
• Commercial pilot certificate with a multi-engine airplane and instrument rating
• ATP or ATP-Written
• Current First class medical with First Class Privileges
• Valid passport
• Valid driver's license
• FCC license
• Legally authorized to work in the United States
• Minimum age 21
• High school diploma

This is if you click on hotjobs pilot. But if you go to "all jobs listing", they have no mins on that page. I noticed that a couple of months ago. Mins or no mins, it seems like we will take anyone right now.

 

[bri5150]

When I was a CFI (a couple years ago), I didn't have enough time to even fly a Bonanza because of insurance until I was an instructor for a few months. How can insurance approve of this?

 

[dondk]

it has been awhile since the hiring team posted its thoughts.

Last time the reason(s) for NOT selecting someone was they had lots of skeleton's in their closets. The type of multiple failures or this was an applicants 3rd or 4th regional in about as many years.

It is about completion rates in training, we have not had a 50% washout in new hires in quite some time. You cannot always point the finger at training or lack of, you also have to point the finger at the trainee.

Attrition is from both sides of the list, it varies by domicile. In MSP as an example for every 2 FO's we lose 1 CA. In DTW it is the opposite, MEM I hear is about evenly split in the seats. Many FO's this was/is a transitional job, especially amongst those who came from one of the many programs we hire from.

 

[redflyer65]

From a FO stand point, all you have to do is look at the Netjets payscale and you can fully understand why FO's bolt from this place. If I were in their shoes, I'd be flying out the door too.

 

[Godfather]

Raotflmao!!!!

anna nicole could get hired right now

Too bad she can't pass the drug test!!!! :laugh:

 

[Flyer1015]

it has been awhile since the hiring team posted its thoughts.

Last time the reason(s) for NOT selecting someone was they had lots of skeleton's in their closets.

I have a skeleton in my closet, and I hope it doesn't come to haunt me in the future.

Back in August 2004, a hooker tried to over-charge me. So I choked the b*tch to death, and stuffed her in the closet. Alas, I checked there just last month, and lo behold, there is a skeleton in that closet!

 

[Flyprdu]

I have a skeleton in my closet, and I hope it doesn't come to haunt me in the future.

Back in August 2004, a hooker tried to over-charge me. So I choked the b*tch to death, and stuffed her in the closet. Alas, I checked there just last month, and lo behold, there is a skeleton in that closet!

BA-DOOMP!
(He'll be here all week folks!)

 

[CX880]

Jet propel your pilot career!
Licensed pilots with multi-engine experience only. Please rush your resume to [email protected] or fax to (901) 348-4162 today.

 

[405]

nevermind. not my area to post.

 

[Lear70]

When I was a CFI (a couple years ago), I didn't have enough time to even fly a Bonanza because of insurance until I was an instructor for a few months. How can insurance approve of this?

It's called "self-insured" and "risk-management" and a lot of luck so far.

Pinnacle is self-insured up to (I believe) $1 Million, meaning that if they bend an airplane up to that amount, insurance doesn't pay a thing, comes directly out of the pockets on Noncaring.

Second, Risk Management. Senior management discussed this once in a pilot meeting when Pinnacle first started getting the 400 hour wunderkids and the Captains were p*ssed about having to take up the slack with what these guys didn't know.

Indeed, my thought (which I voiced to management) was: if I have to do O.E., I want to get paid Check Airman override.

Management said that it's all about the numbers and how much risk you're willing to take on. The odds of anything going wrong are fairly low. The odds that it will be something the Captain can't handle as long as you can stabilize the airplane and let the low-time guy fly the automation while you, the Captain, handle the emergency then you, the Captain, perform the landing, are very low as well.

They're willing to accept that risk, and with the only 2 major accidents in the jet being guys that had high total time (even though they had relatively low jet experience), there isn't enough data to pin it on (even though the 3701 accident F/O was low time as well. Don't remember the MKE crew times).

They've used that data to talk the insurance into accepting those mins, although I'm sure they pay a higher premium for it.

That's one of the main reasons Terry Mefford was so inflexible about Captain upgrade minimums. Low time in one seat is a recipe for disaster. Low time in both seats is like baking the cake and icing it yourself.

 

[mcjohn]

What are the Captain upgrade minimums?

 

[Smarta$$]

Jet propel your pilot career!
Licensed pilots with multi-engine experience only. Please rush your resume to [email protected] or fax to (901) 348-4162 today.

http://www.nwairlink.com/pilot_listing.htm

Minimum Hiring Requirements:
• 1000 hours total flight time (Preferred)
• 200 hours multi-engine time (Preferred)
• 100 hours instrument (max 20 hours simulator - Preferred)
• Part 121 Operation Experience (Preferred)
• Commercial pilot certificate with a multi-engine airplane and instrument rating
• ATP or ATP-Written
• Current First class medical with First Class Privileges
• Valid passport
• Valid driver's license
• FCC license
• Legally authorized to work in the United States
• Minimum age 21
• High school diploma

 

[Lear70]

What are the Captain upgrade minimums?

Last I heard it was 3,500 total time with 500 in jet aircraft, reducable to 3,000 total time hour for hour for time in type.

In other words, a guy hired at 500 hours would have to wait until 3,000 hours total time (about 3 years) and would have well over 500 hours in type.

A guy hired with 2,800 hours would be able to upgrade at 3,000 hours if he had previous 500 hours of jet time, or at 3,300 hours if he didn't have jet time since 500 is required and time in type lowers total time requirements.

Clear as mud?

Those WERE the mins. Don't know if Santi has lowered them yet, TM was under a LOT of pressure to do so.

 

[Flyprdu]

What happens to high time hires who can upgrade on time, when low time hires that upgrade later but have higher FO seniority? Do you lose your seniority to the wunderkinds? Or are they underneath you?

 

[another cfii]

What happens to high time hires who can upgrade on time, when low time hires that upgrade later but have higher FO seniority? Do you lose your seniority to the wunderkinds? Or are they underneath you?

Like any other airlines, seniority is everything. Your low time FO that has better seniority would be above your high time FO in your case. We just had a bunch of Gulfstream guys that were low time about 3 years ago starting to upgrade. I have been lucky enough not to have any trouble with low time FO so far. They all know the books real well, the only thing that they would need before they upgrade is the experience when shxt hits the fan, how to stay calm and handle things.

So don't get riled up about low time FO, they're everywhere. Pinnacle is not the only place that hire'em. Nowadays you don't build ME in a light twin, you build it in a CRJ.

 

[Flyprdu]

Like any other airlines, seniority is everything. Your low time FO that has better seniority would be above your high time FO in your case. We just had a bunch of Gulfstream guys that were low time about 3 years ago starting to upgrade. I have been lucky enough not to have any trouble with low time FO so far. They all know the books real well, the only thing that they would need before they upgrade is the experience when shxt hits the fan, how to stay calm and handle things.

So don't get riled up about low time FO, they're everywhere. Pinnacle is not the only place that hire'em. Nowadays you don't build ME in a light twin, you build it in a CRJ.

Just wondering if you could get displaced as a CA as wunderkinds come up from underneath. You could be on reserve for a while.

 

[XJohXJ]

You wouldn't get displaced back from CA to FO (unless the fleet shrinks...), you would just sit for a real long time at the bottom of the CA list. Anyone senior to you who upgrades after you do, will still be senior to you after the upgrade. They are always senior to you, it just doesn't matter when they're on a different list.

 

[CX880]

Last I heard it was 3,500 total time with 500 in jet aircraft, reducable to 3,000 total time hour for hour for time in type.

In other words, a guy hired at 500 hours would have to wait until 3,000 hours total time (about 3 years) and would have well over 500 hours in type.

A guy hired with 2,800 hours would be able to upgrade at 3,000 hours if he had previous 500 hours of jet time, or at 3,300 hours if he didn't have jet time since 500 is required and time in type lowers total time requirements.

Clear as mud?

Those WERE the mins. Don't know if Santi has lowered them yet, TM was under a LOT of pressure to do so.

I'm pretty sure Pinnacle has dropped their upgrade mins to 1800, ATP, and a couple of hundred in the CRJ. My question is what do they do with 200 hour hires? Is there some kind of loophole in the regs because they obviously will not have the requirement for the ATP.

 

[i fly boxes]

I'm pretty sure Pinnacle has dropped their upgrade mins to 1800, ATP, and a couple of hundred in the CRJ. My question is what do they do with 200 hour hires? Is there some kind of loophole in the regs because they obviously will not have the requirement for the ATP.

Upgrade mins have not dropped.