Pilots..lock and load

[ibaflyer]

Q:Because firearms for pilots have been approved, who is going to provide the financial backing for the cost of the guns, training, supplies and most of all liability?

A:These issues are covered in the Homeland Security Bill. Here are a few quotes:


"The Under Secretary shall only be obligated to provide the training, supervision, and equipment necessary for a pilot to be a Federal flight deck officer under this section at no expense to the pilot or the air carrier employing the pilot." (I read that to say they will provide the weapons and training. Another section states the pilot can provide a weapon at the pilot's expense if it meets the standards of the program.)


"Pilots participating in the program under this section shall not be eligible for compensation from the Federal Government for services provided as a Federal flight deck officer. The Federal Government and air carriers shall not be obligated to compensate a pilot for participating in the program or for the pilot's training or qualification and requalification to carry firearms under the program." (I read that to say you're getting any extra pay and you're not going to get paid for any flight pay loss.)


"An air carrier shall not be liable for damages in any action brought in a federal or State court arising out of a Federal flight deck officer's use of or failure to use a firearm." ( The company is off the hook.)


"A Federal flight deck officer shall not be liable for damages in any action brought in a Federal or State court arising out of the acts or omissions of the officer in defending the flight deck of an aircraft against acts of criminal violence or air piracy unless the officer is guilty of gross negligence or willful misconduct." (The pilot is off the hook unless he/she really screws up. If the pilot gets sued he/she will be treated as an employee of the Federal Government.)


This is new territory for all of us. The government still has to define the program and implement it within 3 months while specifically addressing over 12 issues that must be resolved, we'll see what they come up with.

 

[Dep676]

Well if the pilot wants to carry. Which I would if I could. They need to spend about 400 to 500 of their moldy money and buy a gun. The one to left would be a great cockpit gun. It's the glock 36 a .45 cal compact. Would put a nice hole in someones pumpkin and spray gray matter all over. That is just my 2 cents. Then the airlines or government should foot the bill for training.

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

Do you think a Desert Eagle would be too much? How easy is it to pierce a pressurized hull and cause catastrophic bulk failure? I don't have a problem defending a 172 with a snub nose, but wouldn't it be asking for trouble inside an airliner, at flight levels, where equally hightened nerves and pressure may lead to a catastrophy?

Would someone like to chime in? Oh, and before the gun freak haterz start attacking, I am all for the right to carry ( I am just pondering the possibilities)

CEO

 

[flexlrpilot357]

I like Glock too, but I carry the model 33, the subcompact .357 auto. It's a smaller diameter than the previously proposed .45 and .50 calibers, so it will cause less de-pressurization when it pierces the pressure vessel. This is especially important for maintaining cabin altitude in smaller aircraft.

 

[Timebuilder]

The Glock looks like a nice weapon, a far cry from the M1911A that I once used.

I'll speculate that the ammo will be spec'ed out to the equivalent of the air marshall rounds: anti personnel, and plane friendly.

Anyone have a good gun dealer they can recommend in eastern or central Pennsylvania? One with a good range on site is what I'd like.

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

What's a good anti-personnel, aircraft-friendly weapon? One that will stop an attacker (flesh and bone), yet will stop short of piercing a hull? Maybe special bullets? You know, the ones with offset centers, that spin inside a person once they hit? I remember reading about these being used in high risk (read a lot of people standing by) situations

CEO

 

[SpeedBug]

I'll speculate that the ammo will be spec'ed out to the equivalent of the air marshall rounds: anti personnel, and plane friendly.

The Air Marshals carry the Sig 229 in .357 sig, round is the same on the US Secret Service uses, 125 grain Speer Gold Dot.

I’ve heard and especially read on message forums that the FAM’s use special “frangible” ammo, which is not the case. The TSA choose this gun/round combo in part to the extensive testing the SS did when they transitioned from the 9mm Sig 228 to the .357 sig 229.

Air marshals are taught to double tap center mass, center torso. This is the area of the body most likely to retain a bullet.

I was just at Glynco, FLETC completing the Basic Criminal Investigators short course for my reintroduction into the USMS, while we were there we met a group of FAM’s doing the basic pistol course for instructors and we spent a good bit of time with them on the range, in and out of a couple of classes and even had dinner with them a few times.

We chitchatted about everything including firearms and they were very happy with the 229, also they are getting geared up in anticipation of certifying the influx of pilots after the beginning of the year for carriage of firearms aboard planes.

The TSA will choose the weapon and caliber; also they will most likely use the current standards for personal weapon carriage for all of the TSA LEO’s.

Look to see most pilots being issued a Sig and the acceptable calibers will most likely be .357 sig and 9mm.

This is just what I gathered from those FAM’s at FLETC who were training up to train ya’ll.

FWIW

SpeedBug

 

[Timebuilder]

I stand corrected. Serves me right for being out of the loop. When I was firing on a regular basis, my ammo was a sixty year old design!

How much does the Sig Sauer cost?

 

[Timebuilder]

I just discovered my NRA membership has lapsed.

I recommend my fellow pilots join up. I'm renewing.

 

[El Duderino]

I like the Glock. I have a G29. Sub Compact 10mm. FBI stopped using this round because of over penetration, but with a bullet like a Mag Safe, or an Air Defense Round(read in some mag about its production, forgot the man.) over penetration would not be a problem, not that you would need to worry about RD too much. I would still prefer to carry my Springfield 1911 45 cal. custom jobber, with officer frame and a commander barrel. I'll leave the Wilson CQB Compact at home under the mattress(sexy bits). I look forward to any type of training the airlines or flight departments plan to provide.

duder

1911 all the way home

 

[Timebuilder]

Hey, Mark, how about a small arms forum??

 

[FracPilot]

Calibers

The problem with the .357SIG round is that there is some serious over-penetration. Ever used that round in ballistic gellatin? It really destroys, but will likely go right through a person. Even the hollowpoints tend to over-penetrate a bit in that caliber. The objective, of course, is to transfer maximum energy to the target.

I carry a Kimber custom, cocked and locked, with 230gr Speer Gold Dot. I own a Glock 21(in addition to the 23 and 20) also, and it is an excellent weapon - just a bit too large for typical carry, unless using a shoulder holster. I also own several Sig, a couple Taurus, several S&W, a couple Para-Ord, and many shotguns and rifles. Overall, I prefer the .45ACP for a carry handgun due to the characteristics of the round. Of course, for home protection, you can't beat a pistol grip 12ga pump.

 

[Dieterly]

http://www.chickenhead.com/features/nrakids/index.html

 

[Wolf King]

Im sure it has already been discussed, but weren't the terrorist dudes posing as pilots? So now maybe the possibility might exist for some raghead pilot imposter (Oops, not PC!!) to show up with a gun instead of a box cutter?

Wouldn't it be much better to just teach the milktoast pencil necks among us how to fight? It's always more satisfying to look into the bad guys eyes as you sqeeze the life out of him with your bare hands.

I can't wait... a bunch of Barney Fifes running around the terminal with their guns!

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

Actually, shot guns with buck shots are a pretty good idea...they'll blow the sucker back, and whatever residual BBs don't hit him, will end up just bouncing of the walls (well, possibly other people)
Yew think FAA will go for sawed-off's?

 

[Patriot328]

One thing to remember (possibly)...

Pending a decision on exactly what gun to use (which will make all this moot), I personally would want a pistol that holds as many high powered rounds (which don't over penetrate) as possible. Something along the lines of a ParaOrdnance P14-15 (or the LDA version if you'd like). 15 rounds of 230gr JHP will do some damage.

I have a Glock32 (357sig) and love it. At most it holds 14 rnds (with normal capacity mags, which, as LEOs, I assume we'll be getting).

Full sized 357sig, full sized doublestacked 1911, or a Glock 20 in 10MM would do nicely...


We'll see what we get.. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 32acp, knowing the way the g'vt works. Actually, a Sig in 357sig calibre is the most likely, IMHO.



Patriot

 

[njcapt]

What's the Glock .40 cal with the long grips? I shot a 23 and 27 but this one was sweet. Shot 10 through the ten ring at 25 yards without really trying. I've got hands like waffles, short fingers with wide palms.

I don't care what kind of ammo I'm allowed to use, anything beyond cap gun ammo will do the job from the cockpit (which is the only place I'll be able to use it from). Also, if I can't do the job with a 10 round mag, I shouldn't be carrying.

 

[FracPilot]

I can't wait... a bunch of Barney Fifes running around the terminal with their guns!

This brings up another hotly debated point. How will pilots that are allowed to carry get the weapon safely to and from the airplane? There will likely be some sort of transportation to take them from the non-secure area straight to the aircraft. We can't risk having a bunch of pilots carrying guns inside the terminals where they could be overtaken and lose their guns. Any ideas?

 

[FracPilot]

What's the Glock .40 cal with the long grips?

The full size Glock .40S&W is the model 22. 15 or 17 round mags for LEO/military, 10 for civilian.

 

[Draginass]

Ceo of the sofa seems to think that a 1/2" hole in a fuselage will blow the aircraft apart. Proves you don't have to have any knowledge on the subject to have an opinion.

As far as choice of weapons go. Accuracy is a bit of a red heering. Since any lethal cockpit defense will be used at a range no farther than the cockpit door, that's probably not an issue. What is important is reliability, ease of operation in times of extreme stress, and storage.