Pilot's Discretion

[kswhite]

When given "pilot's discretion" is it MANDATORY to notify ATC upon commencing your climb or decent to the new altitude you were given in your PD clearance?

 

[nosehair]

When given "pilot's discretion" is it MANDATORY to notify ATC upon commencing your climb or decent to the new altitude you were given in your PD clearance?

Simple answer is Yes.

If you go by the book, the AIM that is, which tells you, in Section 5-3-3 Additional Reports, that you are to make a report (a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

To me, that is plain black-and-white. But, I come from a time before radar and altitude encoding transponders. I have seen, and heard, today's modern pilot who does not report leaving at all.
They have been "taught" that the transponder does that job, and controllers are happy with it, and some pilots consider the report "not required & crowding the airwaves".

But I always do, because I know that sometimes, machines and humans make mistakes, and if I call out leaving my altitude, and if it was an error, on my part or theirs, I may save my bacon.

Depends on what you call MANDATORY.

To me, it is, but it is not an FAR, it is in the AIM.

 

[Lead Sled]

Simple answer is Yes.

If you go by the book, the AIM that is, which tells you, in Section 5-3-3 Additional Reports, that you are to make a report (a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

To me, that is plain black-and-white. But, I come from a time before radar and altitude encoding transponders. I have seen, and heard, today's modern pilot who does not report leaving at all.
They have been "taught" that the transponder does that job, and controllers are happy with it, and some pilots consider the report "not required & crowding the airwaves".

But I always do, because I know that sometimes, machines and humans make mistakes, and if I call out leaving my altitude, and if it was an error, on my part or theirs, I may save my bacon.

Depends on what you call MANDATORY.

To me, it is, but it is not an FAR, it is in the AIM.

Good answer, but you also need to understand that most pilots have little or no descretion and are therefore incapable of making any descent based upon the use of something that they do not possess.

 

[avbug]

You should report it when able, but consider frequency congestion. If the radio is busy enough you can hardly get a word in edgewise, and it does get that way, then make your climb or descent. The call is a matter of courtesy. When the frequency is busy, courtesy is not making the call, or waiting to make it.

 

[Seadogrun]

It may not be reglatory, but I allways do and think you should.

 

[Bandit60]

Simple answer is Yes.

If you go by the book, the AIM that is, which tells you, in Section 5-3-3 Additional Reports, that you are to make a report (a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

To me, that is plain black-and-white. But, I come from a time before radar and altitude encoding transponders. I have seen, and heard, today's modern pilot who does not report leaving at all.
They have been "taught" that the transponder does that job, and controllers are happy with it, and some pilots consider the report "not required & crowding the airwaves".

But I always do, because I know that sometimes, machines and humans make mistakes, and if I call out leaving my altitude, and if it was an error, on my part or theirs, I may save my bacon.

Depends on what you call MANDATORY.

To me, it is, but it is not an FAR, it is in the AIM.

When one gives the read back to the controller that is the same as if you where starting your decent and you do not have to say it again. In essence the controller has given you a block altitude to a point. You do not have to give the controller a call everytime you change an altitude in block altitude. So what is the difference. If the controller wanted to hear you when you are ready to climb or decend why wouldnt he or she just ask you to tell them you are ready for the climb or descent and then issue the climb or descent.

 

[kswhite]

after speaking with two controllers and the FSDO, here is what they all said. When they give you a discretionary clearance to descend or climb they have already cleared the airspace. If you hang out for to long, ATC will ask you to begin your immediate decent to your assigned altitude (thereby canceling your PD clearance previously issued). Upon vacating your altitude for the new altitude after given a discretionary clearance, you CAN NOT return to that altitude at any time.

To answer the original question: The radio transmission stating you are vacating your altitude is only mandatory if your are NOT in radar contact. If you choose to make the call vacating your altitude, it is merely a courtesy and will earn you a "thank you."

 

[avbug]

Bear in mind that answers received at the FSDO level have no authority, and are nothing more than opinion...and are not defensible. Get an answer at the FSDO level, hang your certificate on it, and you won't be able to appeal to that answer during subsequent enforcement action.

Insofar as being in a radar environment, there's no basis to differentiate between a radar environment and nonradar environment for reporting altitude changes.

If the AIM is to be the guide, and it should be, and is intended to be, the requirement for reporting vacating a previously assigned altitude for a new altitude exists at all times...not just when not in radar contact.

What should be observed is frequency congestion when making such reports.

 

[satpak77]

short answer

is it takes 2 seconds to say "Show Me 123 is leaving seven thousand down to four thousand"

it is courtesy and lets anyone new on the freq of what you are doing.

in aviation safety, there is no such thing as too much SA

 

[nosehair]

When one gives the read back to the controller that is the same as if you where starting your decent and you do not have to say it again.

If you say in your readback, "1234 is leaving xx thousand for xy thousand, you have reported leaving.

But if you only acknowledge the clearance, you have not reported leaving it.

Why does everyone want to make such a big deal? The AIM is very specific. Just because you have been trained differently does not make it so.

I said in my original post, it is not regulatory, and I do it because I know transponders and controllers make mistakes.

Why do you want to increase the chances of misunderstanding?

If you descend right away, it isn't as much of a potential problem. Operationally, it would be the same as a "descend to", but since the question is about desending at PD, then the pilot is waiting for a bit before he starts descent, and, sometimes, once in a great while, the situation may have changed and the controller might appreciate a reminder that you are beginning your descent. This gives him a chance to change the clearance if something changed in the meantime.

As one poster wrote, it only take 3 seconds to say "234 is descending to xy grand".

People have been killed by not communicating. Why do you resist an AIM recommended procedure?

Oh..wait a minute, I bet it's because your instructor told you, huh?

Instructor verbal messages and even FSDO verbal messages have no legal authority over the AIM.

I'm just quoting the AIM and giving my personal reason why I think it is a safe way to operate.

You are the PIC of your flight and the call is not regulatory. Except, of course, if something goes wrong, and legal uses the AIM to declare a "careless & reckless" operation.

And I would personally prefer that you make the call in case I happen to be underneath you because the controller had a brainfart and put me underneath you.