Pilot Shortage in New Zealand!!!

[Whale Rider]

Saw this on the web.........................Keep the faith!

www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3149142a13,00.html

 

[typhoonpilot]

The thing about it though is that it is a distortion of facts. There are plenty of New Zealand licensed pilots to fill the jobs. There are about 60 to 70 at Emirates alone, probably half rated on the 777. Hundreds more are at other overseas jobs. Most left New Zealand becuase there were no jobs for them other than the turboprop operators. When Ansett New Zealand collapsed they had to go somewhere and ANZ sure wasn't going to hire them all.


Typhoonpilot

 

[RJP]

Again, it's a shame that an FAA ticket is useless outside the US.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

BS

Emirates, CAL, CX and many more will accept FAA tickets..

 

[Vik]

Well, yeah, they don't accept them but you can get hired and you'll have to convert. Like Flyingdutchman pointed out .. Emirates, CX, etc., will hire Americans but you covert your licenses. Not a big deal.

Again, it's a shame that an FAA ticket is useless outside the US.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Again, it's a shame that an FAA ticket is useless outside the US.

As Flyingdutchman says, it is not entirely usless, but it is an impediment to some carriers. Dragonair does not like the FAA certificate and there are others as well, although they are not going to admit it.

It would be better if the FAA certificate had more respect. For that to happen it would mean a move towards the numerous exams like they have in Europe and Australia/New Zealand. The flying part isn't really much diffferent, it is the ground school work that needs to be expanded in the U.S. Mind you, they do go a bit overboard in Australia/UK with some of the theory that isn't really applicable these days.

A Zimbabwean colleague of mine went to Australia a few years back to get an Australian ATP. This guy is a type rating examiner on the 777 and one of the smartest guys I've met. He said that doing the ATP in Oz was one of the hardest things he has ever done. Similarly a Kiwi classmate of mine took a job in the UK some years ago and had to spend the first 8 months sitting the exams to convert his Kiwi license to a Uk license. It would be nice if there was more commonality and less difficulty in converting from one country's certificate to another.


Typhoonpilot

FAA- ATP
Saudi Arabian - ATP
Taiwanese - ATP
UAE - ATP

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, I guess we know where Kit Darby was vacationing over Christmas.

Also, did anyone else notice that the pilot they quoted in the story was "Captain Morgan"? AAARRRR, Matey!

Seriously, if they need and want foreign pilots, they will start recognizing the FAA certificates. . . . . I would have been there in two seconds at that point in my career.

 

[LearLove]

Crap Ty you beat me too it. KIT STRIKES AGAIN!!!!!!!

 

[FlyChicaga]

Question: If you are FAA licensed, can you test to become JAA (or other) licensed while still retaining FAA licensing? For instance, you want to work for a carrier which requires JAA (or other) licensing, but want the option to return for work using an FAA license?

 

[typhoonpilot]

The beauty of an FAA certificate is that it is non-expiring, including the type ratings. The answer to your question is yes, you will retain your FAA certificates. There have been threads in the past on how to go about the conversion. The rules keep changing in Europe though so it would be best to check the civil aviation website of the particular country you are thinking about on how to go about a conversion.

Typhoonpilot

 

[typhoonpilot]

Here is a link to the info on the tests that you might have to take.

http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/jar-fcl/jar-fcl_atpla_frame.html

TP

 

[Thedude]

Well, yeah, they don't accept them but you can get hired and you'll have to convert. Like Flyingdutchman pointed out .. Emirates, CX, etc., will hire Americans but you covert your licenses. Not a big deal.

Guess you have never seen the testing for a JAA or UK certificate. Its a lot more in-depth than our multi-guess questions than we get.

 

[Vik]

You're right, I don't know about the JAA test. I do know that airlines like SQ, CX, EK, BA, VS have strict hiring standards and if they were to hire you, you could study and pass the tests.

The FAA tests are a joke. Our tests should be like the JAA's tests, more indepth and nothing you can simply memorize.

I know people that have taken the JAA conversion tests and they had no problems.

Guess you have never seen the testing for a JAA or UK certificate. Its a lot more in-depth than our multi-guess questions than we get.

 

[Cpt. Underpants]

What you all seem to be forgetting is the necessity for a WORK PERMIT (green card) - you know, the thing that the INS won't give to anyone else so they can work in YOUR country.

Licences aside, until the USA, Canada and Mexico get something like the EU going, where anyone from any EU state can work in any other EU state without any red tape, Americans are going NOWHERE. Neither are Canadians or Mexicans, unless it's illegal.

Licence conversion (when you have been offered employment) in a state like Hong Kong, Singapore or the UAE is a formality. It doesn't mean that the FAA licence is "gold" - far from it. Having written the UKCAA, Canadian, Hong Kong and FAA ALTP's I can assure you the FAA's was far and away the easiest...one weekend of prep and a selection of answers vs the SIX MONTHS for the UKCAA! I asked a colleague here at Cathay who has a degree in actuarial science, a law degree and an MBA what the toughest course was - he answered without hesitation - the UKCAA ATPL exams.

There may be a pilot shortage in NZ, but forget about getting that jet job. Pay is poor, the weather is atrocious and 15 - 20 years as an S/O in ANZ might make you think twice...even if you have a work permit. Mind you, the sheep start looking good after a while...

In case you're wondering what an actuary is, try this link: http://users.aol.com/fcas/jokes.html

 

[Vik]

Actually, many foreign airlines that depend on expats like CX, SQ, EK, AI will get you the work permit if they want to hire you.

UK based airlines (BA/VS/EasyJet)will not.

What you all seem to be forgetting is the necessity for a WORK PERMIT (green card) - you know, the thing that the INS won't give to anyone else so they can work in YOUR country.

Licences aside, until the USA, Canada and Mexico get something like the EU going, where anyone from any EU state can work in any other EU state without any red tape, Americans are going NOWHERE. Neither are Canadians or Mexicans, unless it's illegal.

Licence conversion (when you have been offered employment) in a state like Hong Kong, Singapore or the UAE is a formality. It doesn't mean that the FAA licence is "gold" - far from it. Having written the UKCAA, Canadian, Hong Kong and FAA ALTP's I can assure you the FAA's was far and away the easiest...one weekend of prep and a selection of answers vs the SIX MONTHS for the UKCAA! I asked a colleague here at Cathay who has a degree in actuarial science, a law degree and an MBA what the toughest course was - he answered without hesitation - the UKCAA ATPL exams.

There may be a pilot shortage in NZ, but forget about getting that jet job. Pay is poor, the weather is atrocious and 15 - 20 years as an S/O in ANZ might make you think twice...even if you have a work permit. Mind you, the sheep start looking good after a while...

In case you're wondering what an actuary is, try this link: http://users.aol.com/fcas/jokes.html

 

[surplus1]

Apart from the need for "work permits" and such, the real reason that the FAA certificates are not accepted has a lot more to do with reciprocity than differences in testing. In other words it's politics.[Granted EU testing is more difficult than US testing.]

Until the United States agrees to accept non US certificates other countries are not going to accept US certificates (unless they have a great need). In those countries that will hire US nationals and "accept" the US license, the acceptance is usually related to a "validation" not a conversion. With a "validation" what you get is a recognition of your current certificate for a specific purpose; you don't get a "license" from the country of issue.

US policy, which does not exchange foreign certificates for US certificates does make sense. If the US accepts the exchange of a British certificate or a JAA certificate for a US certificate, it will alos have to "accept" the exchange of certificates from the Dominican Republic, Rawanda, Liberia, Romania, etc. In many cases the standards in these countries are just not "up to par". So rather that accept a license you don't want to it becomes politically correct to accept none. Other countries then "reciprocate" by not accept ours.

Another example of a similar situation is ICAO rules. The US signed that treaty, but until recently it didn't comply with virtually any of it's content and still does not comply with most of it; particularly the rules governing flight, airspace, etc. It's nice to believe that we all "do it the same" but the fact is we do not. It is also NOT true that US rules are "better". Sometimes they are, other times they are not.

 

[Ligeirinho]

Yep it's also a shame that all the world is ICAO (JAA and CAA are mostly ICAO too) and USA is FAA rules that make flight unsafe with pilots trying to fight fatigue and very very profitable for airlines and very very unstable for pilots.

 

[Ligeirinho]

But I almost forgot if they move to ICAO here I would say at least 40% of pilost would loose their tickets right way due high colesterol and obesity problems besides another 25% or more lacking on technical skills.
hummm maybe thats the reason why here still FAA instead of ICAO.

 

[typhoonpilot]

But I almost forgot if they move to ICAO here I would say at least 40% of pilost would loose their tickets right way due high colesterol and obesity problems besides another 25% or more lacking on technical skills.

Don't confuse pilot certification with medical certification. They are two separate issues. I doubt your 40% figure is even close to accurate.

In regards to the technical skills part, I wonder what technical skills you are talking about. Nobody has said the pilots in the States are unable to learn the things that pilots in other countries learn, it is just that they are not required to. Many do anyway as a result of having gone to Universities with aviation programs. Any pilot in the U.S. who has a type rating knows more about that airplane than an equivalent pilot with a European type. He was required to show a much more in depth knowledge of systems to obtain the type rating.

I've flown with a lot of Europeans and Kiwi/Ozmates over the last few years and on the whole they are pretty good operators but their hand flying skills do leave a little to be desired. They make up for it with slightly better overall knowledge and very good CRM.


Typhoonpilot

 

[Dizel8]

In Europe they study theory, in the US we go flying to see it.

In the end, either route makes for a capable airman.

 

[CarjCapt]

.

For the last 30 years a good portion of the individuals (who have money) coming from Europe and elsewhere to the US to get a temporary visa/greencard to get FAA licenses.

They do this for economic reasons because it is vastly less expensive to learn here than their home country.

Also once they are licensed it is easier to get a job here than back home even if they have a JAA license.

It is the best of both worlds they get FAA license and job here or go back home and with the knowledge base able to convert their FAA to JAA much easier.

Having flown with several individuals that came here got their license(s) came to work and then left to return to their home country and fly.

 

[jeff333]

What you all seem to be forgetting is the necessity for a WORK PERMIT (green card) - you know, the thing that the INS won't give to anyone else so they can work in YOUR country.

Licences aside, until the USA, Canada and Mexico get something like the EU going, where anyone from any EU state can work in any other EU state without any red tape, Americans are going NOWHERE. Neither are Canadians or Mexicans, unless it's illegal.

The US has a better deal going come in as a foreigner and get your green card. Then go apply to a major airline and get hired with minimum time while the US born citizens get passed over with tons of experience because the major has to fill some quota.

 

[Cpt. Underpants]

Absolute B-S. A green card is almost an impossibility unless you can demonstrate an ability/qualification in short supply. Pilots? Short supply? BWAHAHAHAHA. IT techs, sure. Brain surgeons, sure. Lawyers and pilots, no way.

 

[jeff333]

Absolute B-S. A green card is almost an impossibility unless you can demonstrate an ability/qualification in short supply. Pilots? Short supply? BWAHAHAHAHA. IT techs, sure. Brain surgeons, sure. Lawyers and pilots, no way.

Hey Capt are you a US major airline pilot? I have ran into quite a few Green Card Pilots at the airlines over the years hired with next to no experience. It is harder in the post 9-11 times to get a green card. Pre 9-11 it was quite easy to come to the USA and be a pilot.

 

[414Flyer]

You're right, I don't know about the JAA test. I do know that airlines like SQ, CX, EK, BA, VS have strict hiring standards and if they were to hire you, you could study and pass the tests.

The FAA tests are a joke. Our tests should be like the JAA's tests, more indepth and nothing you can simply memorize.

I know people that have taken the JAA conversion tests and they had no problems.

Why? knowing all that extraneous crap does nothing to make you a better pilot. You can learn types of different charts (doesnt matter since you will use Jepps anyways), shapes of various kind of radar waves (how applicable is that), and so much useless stuff, that you would never use after the exams are over.

I have flown with some of those who had all of those classes, but were basically worthless in the air. I suppose they would be okay in a very highly structured environment, but if you took away the structure and put them in a fluid changing environment where they had to make judgements and decision, and actually fly the plane, they could be worthless. They often dont know how to think in the airplane, only on the ground.

What area are American pilots deficient in pilot ability that could be changed with all those courses and exams?

Personally I would much rather fly with an American low time pilot compared to low time European or Asian pilot. The American pilot has had a lot more chances to learn and gain experiences, while the Asian or Euro has probably not flown outside of an instructional environment.

After a couple thousand hours, then the differences have gone away by that point.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

In Europe they study theory, in the US we go flying to see it.

In the end, either route makes for a capable airman.

You sir, are 100% correct.

That having said I would rather fly with a “seasoned” pilot, instead of a 200 hour pilot with tons of book experience.

Please, lets not go again to the greencard/visa discussions. Trustme,it is real hard (especially after9/11) to get a temporarilyworkpermit,and its much harder to get a greencard.Go educate yourselfbefore you say something.


And yes, it’s equally hard to get a work permit in (western) Europe for a US citizen. Who whants to live in France anyway?

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Yeah “equal opportunity employer” …

Mmmm don’t think so. American Eagle didn’t want to interview me
when they noticed that I was a legal alien instead of aU.S. citizen..

 

[pegasus]

It's been a while since I posted anything here, but felt compelled to add my 2 cents worth. I am a legal alien, with experience on both sides of the Atlantic. The differences between the JAA and FAA systems have been well covered here: The JAA academics are significantly, and unnecessarily harder. What I would like to do is balance up Typhoonpilot's comments:

"I've flown with a lot of Europeans and Kiwi/Ozmates over the last few years and on the whole they are pretty good operators but their hand flying skills do leave a little to be desired. They make up for it with slightly better overall knowledge and very good CRM."

I have flown with a lot of Americans and Europeans, and I can assure you that there are good and bad (regarding hand skills) in identical percentages in both camps.

With regard the comment elsewhere that Europeans lack the ability to operate flexibily; again, trust me, the same can be said here in the US.

Cheers!

 

[Kiwi]

I know this thread is over 18 months old but I thought you guys should know

- The predicted [by the training organisations] shortage has not yet arrived. As a matter of fact one of our only TWO regional operators has just ceased operations.... all pilots redundant with no hope of finding work. our major carrier Air New Zealand [only 25 or so aircraft] has not been hiring for 5 months so far...

The reporter should do a follow up story.