Pilot Pay

[BluDevAv8r]

So answer me this question. Why does Sami Sosa bring in more revenue than a minor leaguer? Also, if an airline is losing money, (which many are), than according to you, the pilots are bringing in negative revenue, if you will, right? As far as the waiter analogy, that doesn't work either. That's like saying that when you walk through the terminal, the public sees a continental pilot, and than an expressjet pilot, and immediately thinks the XJ pilot is subhuman, which I'm sure isn't the case. Why, you ask? Because you are trained and expected to perform at the same level as the Continental Capt. that you say "generates more revenue than you." I guarantee that if you were to take a Denny's server, and put them in a Ruth's Chris Steak House, you will probably get some strange looks from the customers. The opposite is not true (I like Denny's by the way.).

Alright dude, you're missing the fact that I have already said that talent is what allows them to generate that extra revenue. I'm not arguing that baseball players' pay revolves around talent and pilots are all expected to perform to the same standards. Captains of ocean-going oil tankers are going to be paid more than the captain of the NYC Circle Line boats. Again, it just boils down to revenue generation potential. Period. It has nothing to do with liability, respect, etc. A 737 brings in more money than an RJ. And a 777 brings in more money than a 737. With that said, some companies have chosen to compress the pay scales such as UPS. The top got squashed and they brought the bottom up...so that all pilots are paid on longevity only. But you won't see that industry-wide anytime soon.

-Neal

 

[HA25]

Capt Mark you are making too big deal out of this pilot stuff, the skill to fly an airplane is nearly universal. Anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can fly any airplane. Spiffo, who is to determine that a pilot is worth more than X dollars? the pilot?, the employer?, the flying public?, the capital markets?. Who is the one to determine what a pilot is worth? If I have never seen $100K and would happy at that number, who is to determine I am not being, paid what I am worth. Fly because you like to, it is a great career.

Fly because you like to he says.. I also like to earn a living and have money for retirement, my two kids education, and my mortgage... not to mention, maybe, just maybe my wife wants to stay home and ACTUALLY raise my kids instead of chasing a paycheck to make our family budget!

You clearly didn't have the Emer descent that I had 3 years back with the inside of the plane on fire, Pax and F/A's screaming, and the multiple level emergency which included night, IMC, and a lack of suitable landing strip that I and my crew had in our "Easy" career.. Everything could have turned out differently had we not been well trained and serious professionals who took pride in our job.. and did it because (at least with that operation) we got paid a decent wage. You can't attract the best talent with your "market wages" cause the best know they deserve more than a double wide, Walmart, and a monthly dinner out at Red Lobster..

Dude, give us ALL a brake, and go buy a Cessna 172 to buzz around in, and keep the professional flying to real professionals with a self worth commensurate with the level of skill and professional pride it takes to operate a transport category plane safely.

It would scare me to think that if people like you got their way, I'd eventually have to trust my family in the back of a jet with a crew made up of pilots of the caliber of a Grocery clerk, or 7/11 attendant.. which is about the same pay a 2nd year RJ FO makes at most airlines.. Right? And I'm sure you're 100% ok with that $30K paycheck aren't you, cause apparently where you and D'Angelo live, you still can buy a "nice" house in a "nice" part of town for $300K and buy a car for $30K and still have left over money for (God forbid) a vacation or a hobby...

I can't believe you guys are pilots.. I have to think that maybe you are Ornstein or what ever his name is trolling the message board..

I gotta get out of this thread before my blood pressure gets to where I can't pass my medical!

 

[HA25]

Pilotyip lives in managements toolbox.

Look at his job title.. "Manager"

The guy drinks coolaid for a living.. forget him!

 

[CaptainMark]

oh nothing...

 

[Airway]

I have this feeling D'Angelo is either some management guy posing as a pilot, because no pilot would ever devalue him/herself like that. Obviously not going to be very successful in anything with hiscareer. Even a janitor will defend his livelihood as worthy.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ok first of all not all plumbers, realters, etc make more than 130k /yr. In this day and age realtors are a dime a dozen. Everyone is hoping aboard the real estate bandwagon. .

Well, we've established that you can't spell, have very little idea about how far $130K goes when you're trying to raise a family and aparently think everyone should work for what little amount you are willing to settle for.

Do us a favor, and have a nice big cup of STFU until you've been around the block a few times.




.

 

[pilotyip]

V70T5, someday if thing go your way, you too may be able to total up 12,000 flight time in 50 different types. Not that it is that big a number, but you are not there yet. When you are on my level post me again how the journey was.

 

[Regul8r]

Increase ticket Prices

Airlines are competing both to charge as much as they can, and keep their seats filled...

How about this: Increase the price of the tickets (let the bean counters figure out the magic number) and as you say, the px count will fall off, but not totally. I'd venture to say that you would not lose all that many business travelers. So now the airplane is flying...half full maybe??? Savings can now be realised in several forms: less fuel on board, reduced power takeoffs, lower fuel burn enroute and less wear and tear in general on the airplane. At least it's a start, right?

I'm a really big tool with no F***ing clue as to what's going on. Please ignore my ignorant bullsh*t. Now where's the KY??? I need to go lube up for the Corporate C*ck!

I couldn't agree more D'Angelo. It's the first intelligent thing you've said on this thread!

 

[pilotyip]

regur8. Again fewer seats filled, fewer flights, fewer planes, need fewer pilots, so the ones at the top of the list will benefit and the one's at the bottom will be unemployed. Good for a few, bad for most.

 

[CaptainMark]

V70T5, someday if thing go your way, you too may be able to total up 12,000 flight time in 50 different types. Not that it is that big a number, but you are not there yet. When you are on my level post me again how the journey was.

you write this all the time..what are u bragging about...all the types and flight time and what do you have to show for it?...loading falcons at 59 yrs old?...

 

[CaptainMark]

deleted

 

[flx757]

TheGuppyKiller is Rhoid, 410Dude, IHaveAPension, RJDC, the Guat, Freight Nazi, TheMissingLink, etc, etc.....:smash:

 

[pilotyip]

Capt Mark, again you show how little you really know, unless as a FedEx pilot you are in touch with the really big guy and can turn the clock back. I am almost 63 and still loading DA-20's doing a man's work. None of this sissy programing FMS's for me, no sir ree bob. Start flying the B-17 against next month for free. I am one lucky SOB, still living the dream.

 

[pilotyip]

guppy it is all relative, I really do consider myself a very lucky guy to do what I have done. Like I said it all relative kinda like the $100/yr, just different prospectives that we all are entitlied to hold. I am not sure that programing an airplane between the same two points every day is not a nightmare to me.

 

[CaptainMark]

Capt Mark, again you show how little you really know, unless as a FedEx pilot you are in touch with the really big guy and can turn the clock back. I am almost 63 and still loading DA-20's doing a man's work. None of this sissy programing FMS's for me, no sir ree bob. Start flying the B-17 against next month for free. I am one lucky SOB, still living the dream.

at 63..you are not allowed to program an FMS..and yes ..i know very little

 

[Regul8r]

regur8. Again fewer seats filled, fewer flights, fewer planes, need fewer pilots, so the ones at the top of the list will benefit and the one's at the bottom will be unemployed. Good for a few, bad for most.

If an airplane is making money regardless of being full or not, why not do it?

I can't say it would or wouldn't work. In theory, it sounds like it would. But one thing is for sure; alot of customers don't have that warm and fuzzy anymore about flying. They've been left on the wayside while marketing thinks of hollow catchphrases to rope them in, i.e. American Airlines: We know why you fly (It's not because of our cramped seats, bitchy gate agents/stewardess, or lack of food on the plane that's for damn sure.) I say give it a shot at raising ticket prices across the board. At least it would filter out much of the GreyHound clientele. Let Southwest keep that customer base.

Where was I going? Oh yeah, I'm worth a hell of alot more than this!

 

[HA25]

If an airplane is making money regardless of being full or not, why not do it?

I can't say it would or wouldn't work. In theory, it sounds like it would. But one thing is for sure; alot of customers don't have that warm and fuzzy anymore about flying. They've been left on the wayside while marketing thinks of hollow catchphrases to rope them in, i.e. American Airlines: We know why you fly (It's not because of our cramped seats, bitchy gate agents/stewardess, or lack of food on the plane that's for dang sure.) I say give it a shot at raising ticket prices across the board. At least it would filter out much of the GreyHound clientele. Let Southwest keep that customer base.

Where was I going? Oh yeah, I'm worth a hell of alot more than this!

Dude, you nailed it! Damn I like how you said that!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Any industry that recognizes that retired Delta captain's freedom to choose to work for SkyWest at first year FO pay or not. There is such an FO at SkyWest.

Andy,
The only reason that retired Delta captain can afford to work here as an FO at first year pay is because of the large lump sum he got when he retired from Delta...I had him in my jumpseat.

 

[pilotyip]

SWA would love it

V70T5, and regulr8; SWA would love to take all of the Greyhound base, more full planes, more money to share with their already well paid pilots. 5 yrs F/O to Captain with the increase in the Greyhound bus passengers. Less passengers, less flights for the higher priced, full service airlines, fewer airplanes and pilots needed. 15 years F/O to Captain. Watch out for what you ask for.

 

[Regul8r]

The Tide is turning

YIP,

I can appreciate what you're saying, and I think alot of airline management teams buy into ideas along your lines. American, United, NWA, etc., need to realise that SWA is only so big. SWA only flies 737s and they will not soak up the entire market overnight. Their pilots are getting more senior and they deserve to make more money. Couple that with their fuel contracts, and their ticket prices are slowly but surely rising. The sky won't fall for other airlines when ticket prices are raised.

American and United shouldn't be basing their ticket prices or employee compensation off of SWA's cost structure. Competition is supposed to bring variety to the market. Today it's like going to Saigon's Red Light district; you've seen one whorehouse, you've seen them all!

Figure out how to fairly compensate the employees and then base the ticket prices off of that. What's wrong with being a 15 yr F/O if you're making $175,000 a year?

Maybe that's why the cargo carriers are doing so well. They're selling their service of quick delivery and charging accordingly for it.

 

[spiffomatic]

YIP,

SWA only flies 737s and they will not soak up the entire market overnight.

Regul8r,

A good class in economics will cover this. the legacy carriers can not charge significantly higher prices on similar routes and expect to carry enough passengers to cover their costs. the costs of running an airline are enormous - the revenue can also be enormous in good times - these are not them - but each time there's a price disparity over a route, every lcc will fly full and every high priced airline will fly with a few people who have no other choice or don't mind the high price, even if the service is much better. it's still a seat from A to B, and it can be bumpy and uncomfortable at times, even when you pay a lot.

So SWA and other lcc's can't conquer the world overnight, but Delta and others have found ways to lose BILLIONS a quarter. That's not a good business model. Beancounters know when they can risk inching prices up or down, and they sure know they can't float significantly higher prices in many markets - They DO charge high prices in non-competitive markets when they can, and for last minute customers, because they can. If they're not making profits but SWA is, SWA makes more money, can leverage more aircraft and steadily moves into new markets - look at all the Airways ground they've started to creep in to - heck, look at regional airline growth over the past few years. It doesn't happen overnight, but there's a reason (and of course it's not just SWA, but their fuel hedges sure helped them) why most of the majors have tasted BK recently. Good news is that SWA pilots are starting to make pretty decent coin. That's good for those pilots, and since it makes their costs a little higher, it incrimentally helps the old majors gain some footing again, strengthen and perhaps allow their pilots to push for higher wages in a few years. It's a pendulum, but sometimes it swings far enough to push a company over the edge (braniff, eastern, etc).

Point is - they can not just charge a higher price and expect it to stick. They can't let another company have all the greyhound customers. We are ALL - to some extent - the greyhound customers and we all look for the best deal. Think about that the next time you can't non-rev or jumpseat.

 

[spiffomatic]

YIP,
The sky won't fall for other airlines when ticket prices are raised.
quote]

one more thing,

Most of the time, when a major dips its toe in the water of a price hike, they do it hoping that it will cause a similar hike by their competitors. This happened when fuel started going through the roof, and it's happening here and there now. If most of the other airlines operating in the region go along with it, the price hike sticks and every airline breathes a sigh of relief. But when the others don't go for it and try to gain a competitive advantage, the initiator usually drops the price back down after a few weeks - that $10 difference is all the orbitz customer usually needs to make his/her decision just that much easier. Heck, it's a whole latte and muffin to them!

 

[Midnight Flyer]

We all know that no matter what airplane you fly, it takes the same amount of professionalism and skill, whether its a brasilia or a 777.

I used to think that too, until I started at my current job several years ago.
Take appearance, for example. Appearance is only one small part of being "professional". But at my airline, there are B727 pilots running all over the place with no ties, very dirty/untucked shirts, unshaven faces, uncombed hair..the list goes on. Some of them I've seen wearing those faded dark navy blue dockers in place of the uniform (suit) pants. I've even seen a captain wearing those goofy black velcro tennis shoes that you get from Walgreens. One guy thinks he's a cop, with all the crap hanging off of his belt (cellphone, maglight, sunglasses case). Even though my airline provides newhires with leather jackets, one of our pilots still wears his jacket from a prior airline, and pinned the metal shirt wings over the embroidered wings on his jacket. What the?
Just embarassing when you're in the hotel lobby waiting for the van, and the other pilots are in correct uniform with their shirts pressed, nice shoes, etc but there's always that one pilot standing there looking like pig-pen from Peanuts. I've seen flight instructors making beans for pay look more professional than some of our guys
Didn't mean to hijack the thread.........

 

[HA25]

Midnight Flyer, it's a vicious cycle of "you get what you pay for" at work.. I too have noticed pilots, especially at lower paid outfits looking like crap... you rarely see a UAL/DAL/AMR guy looking as bad as some of these others, but even they have their slobs..

The whole profession is a shadow of its former self..

Something else i can't get used to, and I've seen this once while on a UAL Shuttle flight way back before 9/11 .. is a cockpit with two ladies, and the cabin with all guys.. If that doesn't tell you how upside down this profession has gotten, what does?

 

[MECH]

After some simple math I think we are all getting the shaft. The RASM that a large aircraft produce far exceed those of a smaller aircraft.

The numbers I came up with use the pay at Gulfstream on the 1900.

Captain:
1st yr $29.00
11th yr $47.00

First Officer:
1st yr $17.00
11th yr $22.00

When you convert this to a per seat pay rate a B767-400 would pay.

Captain:
1st yr $358.68
12th yr $581.32

First Officer:
1st yr $210.26
11th yr $272.11

B737-300/700.
Captain:
1st yr $189.26
11th yr $306.74

First Officer:
1 st yr $110.95
11th yr $143.58

I Know that I used very simple math to look at the rates, but we are not even close to these numbers. Does that mean that 1900 drivers are way over paid? I don't think so.

 

[D'Angelo]

How about this: Increase the price of the tickets (let the bean counters figure out the magic number) and as you say, the px count will fall off, but not totally. I'd venture to say that you would not lose all that many business travelers. So now the airplane is flying...half full maybe??? Savings can now be realised in several forms: less fuel on board, reduced power takeoffs, lower fuel burn enroute and less wear and tear in general on the airplane. At least it's a start, right?



I couldn't agree more D'Angelo. It's the first intelligent thing you've said on this thread!

Im sorry you have to misquote me to feel so good about yourself. You really need to see a doctor. You have an unhealthy obsession with people taking it up the arse which I never have done. Happily married to the lady for 4 years now. If you are gay its ok, just get help and quick. Your lifestyle is killing you and your twisted dreams aren't helping

 

[pilotyip]

AirTran and Spirit announce fare cuts for the upcoming summer flying season. NWA to match the fares on popular destinations. As seen in the Detroit Free Press this morning.

 

[HA25]

Im sorry you have to misquote me to feel so good about yourself. You really need to see a doctor. You have an unhealthy obsession with people taking it up the arse which I never have done. Happily married to the lady for 4 years now. If you are gay its ok, just get help and quick. Your lifestyle is killing you and your twisted dreams aren't helping

D'Angelo if you are a member of OBAP (I'm assuming from your avitar), I sure hope they kick you out man.. this profession, much less OBAP needs less future scabs and more members with balls... If you spent as much energy improving your crappy paycheck on the CRJ as you do flaming members of this board, we would all be better for it. Join ALPA and get involved, otherwise (and I repeat) get out of this business.

 

[Regul8r]

Pilotyip, I am glad you are living the dream. I think alot of people on here are thankful for humbler things like having their health and having good friends. I value my family and friends above my job which is why I will never be satisfied with work and will continually strive to improve the benefits and compensation received. It's aggravating to see new hires lining up in droves to get paid $17k/yr to monitor computer equipment aboard a jet.

 

[Regul8r]

I like when I'm right!

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-04-12-airline-prices_x.htm

It's starting!