Pilot Pay

[Airway]

Don't waste your breath Cpt Mark.. and thanks to the FDX guys for doing their part to keep the bar higher.

I second that. Seems like the only balls in this industry are in Cargo.

 

[Regul8r]

To all of you who want to be realistic, go call the Captain of the Sioux City, Iowa crash a call and tell him he was getting paid too much. He was only worth a third of what his paycheck was at the time.

 

[pilotyip]

Could it be the cargo guys have balls because they work for very profitable companies than can afford above average pay?

 

[Airway]

Could it be the cargo guys have balls because they work for very profitable companies than can afford above average pay?

I see your point, but considering that FedEx is in negotiations and the pilots have not taken a paycut like their passenger counterparts, it doesn't seem likely that they're going to bend over and take 40% pay cuts. Remember, the pilots at United voted the cuts easily in. Management had only to ask. Literally.

Wait till the Gulfstream hookers get in the doors.

 

[HA25]

Could it be the cargo guys have balls because they work for very profitable companies than can afford above average pay?

First off, Cargo guys aren't the only ones with balls.. NWA and DAL's ALPA are showing balls, as did APA.. They are reasonable, and yet they hold to a basic common ground.

As for their companies being profitable.. if all of the airlines paid roughly the same, and all of them had roughly the same schedules and crew utilization.. then you could take labor out of the equation, just as for the most part fuel is taken out, buy the fact that all airlines ultimately buy their fuel from the same market.. leaving it up to their management to "manage" those costs with in the context of their business model, and market plan..

On the other hand, if every time an Airline's managers make a strategic mistake leading them to have smaller revenues vs a competitor, that Airlines pilots have to step in and save the company by taking gigantic pay cuts to keep the cash flows positive.. then the pilots are doing nothing more than the government does when they provide financial bailouts to the failing airlines.. prolonging the inevitable, due to incompetent management.. also the side effect of this is that new "precedent" is set for pilot wages at that airline, and the others then MUST follow to keep that part of their cost equation in line with this failing airline.. and we SPIRAL DOWN.. If you don't get that, and the majority of pilots coming into the profession today don't get that (as I have seen).. it's all lost.. this will be a bus driver job inside of 20 years..

 

[Regul8r]

First off, Cargo guys aren't the only ones with balls.. NWA and DAL's ALPA are showing balls, as did APA.. They are reasonable, and yet they hold to a basic common ground.

As for their companies being profitable.. if all of the airlines paid roughly the same, and all of them had roughly the same schedules and crew utilization.. then you could take labor out of the equation, just as for the most part fuel is taken out, buy the fact that all airlines ultimately buy their fuel from the same market.. leaving it up to their management to "manage" those costs with in the context of their business model, and market plan..

On the other hand, if every time an Airline's managers make a strategic mistake leading them to have smaller revenues vs a competitor, that Airlines pilots have to step in and save the company by taking gigantic pay cuts to keep the cash flows positive.. then the pilots are doing nothing more than the government does when they provide financial bailouts to the failing airlines.. prolonging the inevitable, due to incompetent management.. also the side effect of this is that new "precedent" is set for pilot wages at that airline, and the others then MUST follow to keep that part of their cost equation in line with this failing airline.. and we SPIRAL DOWN.. If you don't get that, and the majority of pilots coming into the profession today don't get that (as I have seen).. it's all lost.. this will be a bus driver job inside of 20 years..

ALPA is very good at grandstanding, and then quietly agreeing to take paycuts for benefits down the road. The pilots are conveying the message (unwillingly) through ALPA that they are very easily spooked. Nothing straightens the pilot group out faster than the threat of losing their jobs. Precision and skill are demanded of pilots, why not management?

This already IS a bus driver job. Have you seen the customers riding in first class lately?

 

[Hawker dude]

God, where do you start? A lot of you guys, like buttangelo are idiots. you don't value yourself. you are worth more. this is why pay at regionals and majors are down. if someone stood up to fight some whore like mesa would step in and take over the flying. there is no unity.

Now if you look at the cargo and fractionals, they have this really cool idea. its called pass the cost of flying to the consumer. wow, just think if every pilot demanded more money, don't you think management would have to charge more?

For everything a pilot does we deserve more than a freeking butt crack showing plumber. do they have a medical every six months? and if they fail that do they lose their job? do they rack up $80,000 in student loans? do they miss holidays at home? do they get to see their kids first steps? I don't think so. The MTV pilot generation needs to grow some balls.

 

[spiffomatic]

As for their companies being profitable.. if all of the airlines paid roughly the same, and all of them had roughly the same schedules and crew utilization.. then you could take labor out of the equation, just as for the most part fuel is taken out, buy the fact that all airlines ultimately buy their fuel from the same market.. leaving it up to their management to "manage" those costs with in the context of their business model, and market plan..
..

Although I agree strongly with what many of us seem to realize - that if we all had the unity, and bollocks to stand up for what we deserve, we'd all make more, and the costs could appropriately be passed onto the passengers, there's a limit to this...

not every passenger *needs* to fly - and the more a ticket costs, whether from skyrocketing fuel costs, TSA "surcharges", or pilot pension plans, the more likely a passenger is to telecommute, put off a trip, or change travel plans to something more affordable. Airlines are competing both to charge as much as they can, and keep their seats filled... at least the latter part of the equation is coming back... problem is, if the LCCs (no, not the airways ticker symbol) respond as seats fill by ramping up capacity, we "re-walmart" the whole equation again with a key ingredient (from mgmt POV) being depressed pilot wages.

I do realize that a 20% increase in pilot compensation does not imply a 20% increase in ticket cost, but on some level, the higher the ticket price, the less people travel by air.

obviously the pilots in the near-bankrupt carriers have little leverage to force their wages up - those at profitable ones can, if they have the gumption, and a contract up for renewal, force wages in the right direction, but this is a slow process...

my kingdom for a STRONG and industry-wide union where 5 or 15 or 30 years of 121 experience on a resume would result in appropriate compensation when your carrier goes braniff on you!

 

[CaptainMark]

God, where do you start? A lot of you guys, like buttangelo are idiots. you don't value yourself. you are worth more. this is why pay at regionals and majors are down. if someone stood up to fight some whore like mesa would step in and take over the flying. there is no unity.

Now if you look at the cargo and fractionals, they have this really cool idea. its called pass the cost of flying to the consumer. wow, just think if every pilot demanded more money, don't you think management would have to charge more?

For everything a pilot does we deserve more than a freeking butt crack showing plumber. do they have a medical every six months? and if they fail that do they lose their job? do they rack up $80,000 in student loans? do they miss holidays at home? do they get to see their kids first steps? I don't think so. The MTV pilot generation needs to grow some balls.

What is the answer then?..it seems that hopefully the cargo carriers can keep the contracts going in a positive direction so when the pax carriers become profitable again(and they will) the next contracts will be headed in that direction again..but unfortunately you will have guys with attitudes like buttangelo and pilotyip who are just happy to be flying around and think they are overpaid...blah..blah..blah... will be negotiating those contracts...let's hope for the majority stake they won't have any part in those negotiations!

 

[pilotyip]

Again in the end it is the capital markets that will determine how much a pilot will be paid. If your company is profitable like Capt Marks, BTW self admittedly one of the luckiest guys on this board, they can pay their pilots well and I do not believe anyone has a problem with that. However, when you are not profitable you are not attractive to the capital markets, and you have to turn your company into a profit maker, thence reorganization. Again I know good ole lucky Capt Mark does not like to deal with reality the rest of the world faces, but spiffo hit it right on the head, anything that raises tickets prices will decrease passengers. Fewer passengers, fewer flight, fewer planes and ultimately fewer pilots. However, the ones who keep their job in the upper 25% of the seniority list may come out ahead.

 

[Crash Pad]

Let me get this right... If you are an airline and want to get an ALPA pilot you will pay him a set amount of money.
So when you want to compete for flying you never look to the pilots, it is a set cost.
The pilots pay will put them in the top 10% of household incomes in the US.

Dumbest thing I ever heard. The system is way better now. Every contract we get a bigger and bigger chunk soon you'll be able to make 250K at the majors. What are you stupid!

 

[Crash Pad]

To all of you who want to be realistic, go call the Captain of the Sioux City, Iowa crash a call and tell him he was getting paid too much. He was only worth a third of what his paycheck was at the time.

Yeah great theory... Then can management call every smoking hole pilot and demand a refund.

 

[D'Angelo]

I love when you guys devalue your own self-worth and careers by joining into the mantra of management. The longshoremen are lucky they don't have pussies like you working in their industry, or else they'd be making $9.50 an hour with dental and then take 20% in ten years because, well, the market sets the wages. They have balls and Union strength and unity. If the Market really set the wages (and it's not that easy, cry all you want about the 'invisible hand') regional pilots would be making more than skycaps and burger flippers wouldn't be making 5.70 an hour.

I like how all it took was 5 years to screw up what decades of airline pioneers built. No thanks to people more than willing to bend over and take it in the as* because they have let management convince them that they are worthless.

The longshoremen can thump their chest all they want but some day their time will come too. Nothing lasts forever in any buisness. They can be use their mafia union all they want their day of reckoning is coming. You call it having bal*s I call it RICO. Well the mafia is getting weaker every day my friends.

A lot of pilots must have as* fetishes because they love talking about KY and bending over etc. I assure you no one I know is into that kind of thing. Maybe its some of your fantasies on here but not mine. I took a pay cut and am proud to admit it. Proud to admit that I use logic to save my job and my family. I could care a less what my fellow peers think of me or not. Its my family and my life and im gonna do what it takes to keep it goin. Comair lives thanks to logical thinking. The market does set the wages. Plenty of pilots are willing to do it less than we do. You either adapt or get plowed over. "Holding the line" isn't worth it anymore because the people under you will be more than happy to steal your job. No one appriciates it anymore so luckily a lot of people use logic instead of misguided massions. 400 K/ year to do this job??? Please theres no way to justify that kind of income. Especially for senior international crews that nap half the time and then enjoy 30+ hr layovers in some other country. They work the least and get paid the most? I don't think so that simply isn't efficent. Thank god pilots don't run airlines. They would probably run them into the ground faster than incompetent management ever would. Too much wishful and ideal thinking and not enough realism. I surely admit I have no clue what I am doing when it comes to running an airline. Pilots think they are worth $500,000/yr. Nahhhh income in the 100s is plenty. Hell even upper 5 figures is more than most people in this country will ever make.

Sheesh you simply talk realistically on here and everyone gets these twisted as* fetishes. Some of you guys really need counseling. Its unhealthy to be straight and talk so much about KY up the bum or sandpaper up the bum or whatever else. Maybe Dr Phil can help you out. If you want let me know and ill refer you to some good doctors along the east coast

 

[flyboydh1]

I think some of you missed my point. My point is, why should a regional guy get paid less than a major guy? The job is the SAME. I should be able to devote my career to my regional airline and make similar wages as the majors given my longevity. There is no good reason why this shouldn't be the case. For those of you who think there is more liability flying a 777 vs a CRJ, that is BS. Yes, there are more people, yes there is more money involved, but whether or not I fly small a/c vs a large one, I'm going to maintain the same exact professional standards, leg after leg. If anything, the risk/liability is higher, because the regional pilot is exposed more. (more critical phases of flight per day). As for the numbers i put out there, they probably aren't correct, but that's not the point.

 

[HA25]

Pilots think they are worth $500,000/yr. Nahhhh income in the 100s is plenty. Hell even upper 5 figures is more than most people in this country will ever make.

Who said anything about $500K? But in the 100's as you say is also crap.. I run in a circle of professionals now that all get paid in the 100's and they are either engineers, corporate lawyers, or mid range managers at high tech companies like Oracle, Microsoft, and Apple..

100K isn't crap anymore.. have you priced a house, or car lately? OR maybe you live in a trailer and shop at Walmart? Get real dude, and do us all a favor and get out of aviation.. seriously.

 

[D'Angelo]

Sure you can get a reasonable car for around 20-30k. You can get a really nice house on a 100k / yr salary in a good part of town. You will have enough for your mortage, car payment, food, retirement. What else do you need? You can easily get a house worth about 200-300 k and in most cities thats enough to be in a good neighboorhood. Even Capt mark making 200 k a year can buy other vacation homes in other states so hes obviously making enough to live, retire, plus invest on the side. If you have a good lady with a decent job your gonna be able to live really nice. BTW I don't shop at walmart I shop at Costco.

 

[pilotyip]

V70T5 again please help me, if $100K isn't nothin', how come 95% of the workers in the US make below that level. They buy homes, cars, take vacations, buy airline tickets, and sent there kids to college. No one in my family has ever made over that figure, except my brother-in-law who ownes a muffler shop, and we all live a decent life. $100K is a figure most people reading this board would find OK. BTW I know double negative.

 

[CaptainMark]

95% of the people in this country did not
1. stay in school
2. get a college education
3. serve our military as a pilot or
4. build thousands of civilian hours
5. not get arrested(double neg)
6. stay off drugs
7. get tested every 6 months on their jobs
8. get drug tested
9. have to be away from family weeks at a time
10. have to complete physicals every 6 months in order to do their job.

really...should i go on... that's why the majority make below that level..come on pilotyip..please tell me u understand that..you seem educated...are u telling me your skills are worth less than a trashman...who btw in nyc make more than 100k

 

[spiffomatic]

V70T5 again please help me, if $100K isn't nothin', how come 95% of the workers in the US make below that level. They buy homes, cars, take vacations, buy airline tickets, and sent there kids to college. No one in my family has ever made over that figure, except my brother-in-law who ownes a muffler shop, and we all live a decent life. $100K is a figure most people reading this board would find OK. BTW I know double negative.

100K is not nearly an extravagent salary for this job. I am not OK with that in the long run. Why would one compare themselves to their brother-in-law, or their buddy down the street for that matter? Dude, used car salesmen make more than us. This has been rehashed time and again, but first and foremost, most pilots are not even making near 100K in the first place!!

I think a big problem exists in the great disparity of backgrounds pilots come from. Those who have been around for a while, in aviation, or entirely different careers appreciate the significance of this job (accountability and responsibility... there's no pause button when something goes wrong up there...), and the cost and sacrafice involved, not to mention the delicate nature of a pilot certificate and medical.

There are a lot of "1 year wonders" amongst us who plunked down much cash, but not much time, and poof! are in the right seat as a glorified box of rocks - they don't get it. They don't appreciate the entirely unforgiving nature of this job at its limits - warning bells, icy runways, squall lines... where their snap decisions based on intelligence and experience make the only difference between life and death. But... they do vote when contracts come up, and they vote with upgrade times in mind, not a strong contract, at least lately.

We are perhaps our own worst enemy. Either way, a good pilot is worth far more than the current average salaries.

 

[pilotyip]

Capt Mark you are making too big deal out of this pilot stuff, the skill to fly an airplane is nearly universal. Anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can fly any airplane. Spiffo, who is to determine that a pilot is worth more than X dollars? the pilot?, the employer?, the flying public?, the capital markets?. Who is the one to determine what a pilot is worth? If I have never seen $100K and would happy at that number, who is to determine I am not being, paid what I am worth. Fly because you like to, it is a great career.

 

[CaptainMark]

you are right..i am making too big a deal..if you are happy..that's great really! but i do hope younger guys have high paying oportunities out there and can enjoy a great career in aviation with the financial rewards that reflect their hard work and desire..mark

 

[COOPERVANE]

I USED to think the top pilots at the majors made TOO much money.

But after spending countless hours away from home, risking your future/life by flying for crappy sometimes unsafe regionals/cargo outfits, low pay for YEARS, passing a medical exam every six months, furloughs, recalls, bankruptcies, recurrent training, interviewing after your furlough, stress from all of the above. And SOME got shot at while defending this country (fewer and fewer)

By god a major airline captain should make at least $400,000 after enduring that for years.

However, he wouldn't deserve/need all that salary if some of the pressure down here at the bottom were released through some job security, a little more pay and a national list

 

[Airway]

Pilotyip lives in managements toolbox.

 

[D'Angelo]

I USED to think the top pilots at the majors made TOO much money.

But after spending countless hours away from home, risking your future/life by flying for crappy sometimes unsafe regionals/cargo outfits, low pay for YEARS, passing a medical exam every six months, furloughs, recalls, bankruptcies, recurrent training, interviewing after your furlough, stress from all of the above. And SOME got shot at while defending this country (fewer and fewer)

By god a major airline captain should make at least $400,000 after enduring that for years.

However, he wouldn't deserve/need all that salary if some of the pressure down here at the bottom were released through some job security, a little more pay and a national list

What you endure is irrelevant. People make the choice to work for shady companies, people make the choice to join the service, people make the choice to take the risk. People especially CHOOSE to pay all that money for their training. People choose to spend hours away from home. BTW you don't spend nearly as much time away from home after a while. We are not the only people that have endured many hardships. We all choose to endure every one of those hardships. We all know this career is a gamble. You aren't owed anything just because you made the choice to endure hardships. All an airline requires to get hired is you have xxx amount of experience. How you choose to get experience is your CHOICE. We all know the payscales, we all know the risks, we all know it goes up and down based on economy. We all know we may never get hired at a major, in fact a large number have no desire to goto a major. We all know furlough is possible. Sorry man but no one has a gun to any of our heads. Its a great impassioned argument however it holds no water in factoring in payscale. We all know the rules from the beginning. If you don't know this from the beginning shame on you for not doing homework

Recurrent every year is a piece of cake, kind of like going on vacation. The first class medical is a breeze as long as your ticker is in good shape and you have good pee. What you have to endure should not have effect on what you get paid. If teachers in inner city schools got paid based on the hell they have been through theyd retire multi millionaires. There is no way anyone will ever get paid simply based on personal hells they have endured.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I think some of you missed my point. My point is, why should a regional guy get paid less than a major guy? The job is the SAME. I should be able to devote my career to my regional airline and make similar wages as the majors given my longevity. There is no good reason why this shouldn't be the case. For those of you who think there is more liability flying a 777 vs a CRJ, that is BS. Yes, there are more people, yes there is more money involved, but whether or not I fly small a/c vs a large one, I'm going to maintain the same exact professional standards, leg after leg. If anything, the risk/liability is higher, because the regional pilot is exposed more. (more critical phases of flight per day). As for the numbers i put out there, they probably aren't correct, but that's not the point.

So should a minor league baseball player make the same as a major league baseball player? And no, I'm not saying that the regional pilots are less talented than the legacy pilots. But it all boils down to the generation of revenue. What airplane brings (or baseball player) brings in more revenue? The 747 or the B1900? And also, by no means am I suggesting that pilots flying B1900's (and other smaller aircraft) are appropriately compensated at this point in time.

-Neal

 

[flyboydh1]

A major leaguer has more talent than a minor leaguer, thats why hes in the majors. A regional pilot with several years experience has the same apparent talent that a major airline pilot has. You just can't make that comparison.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

A major leaguer has more talent than a minor leaguer, thats why hes in the majors. A regional pilot with several years experience has the same apparent talent that a major airline pilot has. You just can't make that comparison.

Sammy Sosa gets paid based on the fact that his performance brings in a ton more revenue than a minor leaguer's performance does. I am not making the point that a legacy pilot is more talented than a regional pilot. I am making the point that the legacy pilot brings in more revenue than the regional pilot on a unit basis. That is why Southwest 737 Captain makes more than a Miami Air 737 Captain...one isn't better than the other but his position and airplane generates more revenue on a unit basis. Period. If you don't like the baseball analogy I'll give you another one...my point is still the same. Pilot pay has, and always will be, based off of the size of the aircraft and by virtue of that - the potential to generate the most revenue.

-Neal

 

[flyboydh1]

You honestly can't say that the pilots generate the revenue. Miami Air doesn't generate the rev. that SWA does because the company doesn't carry the market share SWA does, which is a result of smart business decisions. I fly for a regional airline that makes 100's of millions of dollars more than than the mainline carriers we fly for, yet our pilots make half the money. That's not right. I'm not saying this hole thing would ever materialize in my lifetime, but it's something we should think about. Again, the baseball analogy doesn't work. If someone with more talent, i.e. more HR's, more RBI's, more stolen bases, etc., than Sami Sosa comes along, he will get to the majors, and get paid more, but all because of his TALENT.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

You honestly can't say that the pilots generate the revenue. Miami Air doesn't generate the rev. that SWA does because the company doesn't carry the market share SWA does, which is a result of smart business decisions. I fly for a regional airline that makes 100's of millions of dollars more than than the mainline carriers we fly for, yet our pilots make half the money. That's not right. I'm not saying this hole thing would ever materialize in my lifetime, but it's something we should think about. Again, the baseball analogy doesn't work. If someone with more talent, i.e. more HR's, more RBI's, more stolen bases, etc., than Sami Sosa comes along, he will get to the majors, and get paid more, but all because of his TALENT.

Ok for starters...SWA pilots don't make more than Miami Air pilots based on market share. It is on RASM (unit revenue). Not market share.

On the last point...as I said above already, I am not talking about the talent issue here...I am talking about the ability to generate revenue. Sosa brings more people to the park than a minor leaguer. But since you hate that analogy, a waiter at a 5 star restaurant will make more than a waiter at Denny's. Why? Revenue generation. A doctor who does brain surgery will generally make more than a family practioner...why? He generates more revenue.

-Neal

 

[flyboydh1]

So answer me this question. Why does Sami Sosa bring in more revenue than a minor leaguer? Also, if an airline is losing money, (which many are), than according to you, the pilots are bringing in negative revenue, if you will, right? As far as the waiter analogy, that doesn't work either. That's like saying that when you walk through the terminal, the public sees a continental pilot, and than an expressjet pilot, and immediately thinks the XJ pilot is subhuman, which I'm sure isn't the case. Why, you ask? Because you are trained and expected to perform at the same level as the Continental Capt. that you say "generates more revenue than you." I guarantee that if you were to take a Denny's server, and put them in a Ruth's Chris Steak House, you will probably get some strange looks from the customers. The opposite is not true (I like Denny's by the way.).