Pilot pay!!??

[FDJ2]

An ALPA-determined national minimum pay rate would solve a lot of problems, and push lowball carriers to pay up or shut down.

ALPA does not have the authority to mandate a national minimum wage. How could ALPA force a minimum wage on JBLU, or Airtran for example? The true problem in the industry is the willingness of so many pilots to lower their expectations of what their labor is worth. While we all may, for example, denounce the low pay for a JBLU E190 Captain, JBLU will have no problem filling those seats with willing and eager pilots.

It would be great if ALPA could snap its fingers and establish a minimum pay scale, but ALPA can not do that, particularly when so many pilots are willing to sell their services for less and label pilots who have negotiated good pay rates as greedy.

 

[Ty Webb]

I have brought this subject up before. It's called a Guild. All pilots have to belong to the Guild in order to work. The Guild sets the pay rates for the airlines.

The way to institute the Guild it is not through ALPA, that is for sure. Most pilots at independant unions (SWAPA, APA, etc) would not want it to be administered by ALPA.

Pilots would have to be a member of the Guild to fly 121 aircraft. In order to be in the Guild, you have to agree to work for the rate set by the Guild.

Then, a board comprised of pilots form each airline, will set the rates together. Then, these rates are passed along to the union leaders at each airline, and they are phased in on a schedule that would be determined by the board.

It would sure make negotiating pay rates easy. The Company would be given the Guild rates, and told flat out- "We cannot work for less than this- this is the rates set by the Pilots' Guild. If you don't pay it, we can't fly it".

 

[Publishers]

Review

You all need to review the American automobile business to see how this all flies.

For all intent and purpose, the unions in the auto business controlled the wages of all the players. Well, all until the foreign car makers and outsourcing and plant closures changed the nature of that business.

The companies can guarantee you three times the wages, but, what good is that if they cannot sustain revenues sufficient to pay them.

The other thing is to recognize that there are really dfferent businesses using the same equipment. The LCC's cater to one crowd however are increasingly getting marketshare from another, the legacies. Neither can survive today without the highly discretionary vacation travelers.

You have cargo operators that march to an entirely different beat. In that category, you have both overnight types and regular haulers. Different markets, different yields.

You have the specialty carriers like World or Evergreen with high reuirement for flexibility as they operate on demand or to anothers short term requirement.

Today I had a very well paid corporate pilot in my office who is considering taking a pay cut and going to a fractional for the more fixed time off schedule. He is making a decision based on what is right for him right now in his life.

You would have him I suppose get the same money as the aircraft will be the same. For my money, you have to quit worrying about the bar and everyone else and decide what fits what you want to do. Trust me, there are a ton of people who used to make $XXXXX who are not anymore as the economy has changed and so has their lifestyles. They have nothing ot do with aviation. New day, new opportunity, new rules.

 

[Swede]

The unavoidable problem is that aviation is and can be enjoyable. Guys from all walks of life pursue flying as a hobby. Then they think, "Wow, I can be PAID to do this. and it's FUN! Better ditch this lawyer job which I hate and try to get on with a regional, then I'll have fun while I work." This is why there are 50,000 wannabes with their apps in... "it'll be FUN!"

Like a ticking time bomb, as the hours rack up, and the schedule takes its toll on the human body, it stops being fun. But it's too late... seniority has its talons in you.

There's a famous Dilbert line, goes something like this: "If work was fun, you'd do it for free." Carriers today have an enormous pool of applicants who are qualified. A downward pressure on wages is the inevitable result. I don't think there's an answer.

 

[Mach84]

Taxionewire,


>>>Now that the SEC seems certain to start expensing options, Dave is going to have to rethink his compensation plan for you all. Its easy to be the option fairy, doling out options to young pilots that won't excercise them for years and years when they don't show up anywhere. But once you have to start paying for them up front, my guess is Dave is going to be a tad less liberal with them. Then you will really have to think about the whole notion of what you are willing to accept in terms of pay.<<<<


A compromise is in the works in Congress. Looks like companies will only have to expense stock options for the top 5 executives of a company.....may not affect stock options for worker bees.

 

[FDJ2]

I have brought this subject up before. It's called a Guild. All pilots have to belong to the Guild in order to work. The Guild sets the pay rates for the airlines.

Where does this guild derive its authority to set wages for other pilots? What if there was a new company called Critter that came in and decided to pay less than the guild rate and it had no shortage of young eager pilots willing to work for less and enjoy the fast upgrades and explosive growth associated with the lower costs of its labor. These new Critter pilots had no need for the "dinosaur" airlines and their "dinosaur" guild pilots with their work rules, matching 401Ks or other pension plans. How could the guild stop a host of new generation LCC from sprouting up nation wide, gobbling up market share with their young eager work force not only willing to work for significantly less than those outrageous guild rates in exchange for explosive growth and rapid upgrades, but also celebrating the demise of those "dinosaur" guild airlines?

 

[Ty Webb]

I have no problem answering your question, but since you chose to take the inflammatory name of "Critter", it sounds to me like your head is way too far up your arse to hear any logical response.

FWIW, it looks to me like only 140 out of the 900 pilots at AirTran were originally "Critter" pilots, so when you are throwing the term "dinosaur" around, it sure sounds like it applies to you.

For anyone else here who has an open mind- the answer is pretty simple. The way things are going right now, airlines are going to end up like the railroads- an albatross around the neck of the Federal government. They would much rather allow legislation mandating a guild than they would return to regulation . . . I guarantee it.

The way to start it might be through CAPA- The Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, which includes the pilots of SWA, American, AirTran, and other independant unions.

 

[buzzer]

You are worth what you can get. Seems like pilot groups have been seeing what they can't get lately. We don't do to well as a group, often seeing the quick upgrade over the long term gains.

 

[Huck]

You got that right.

What's a pilot worth? What he negotiates. It is indeed that simple.

All you Fox news conservatives out there should recognize that as the essence of the free market.

So how you gonna negotiate? By yourself against the CEO? Or you going to band together, pay some dues and hire some lawyers? See how the free market requires organization? It's a beautiful thing.

There's a wonderful scene in an old Fawlty Towers episode: his chef negotiates double pay for some overtime.

Fawlty: "I pay you for two hours, you clear off after half an hour. That's socialism."

Chef: "Oh no, Mr. Fawlty, that's the free market!"

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

As long as their are more pilots than jobs, all and any management can make wages and benefits a sellers market. You can form all the guilds, unions, asociations or whatever, but at the end of the day, there's still that check hauler, frieght dog, military guy, or furloughed pilot ( no offense meant by any of the terms) who look to hauling pax as a way to a better quality of life. The only way we could get pay up as an industry is to have it mandated by Congress. (Fat chance on that!) In the meantime, we have to work within our own organizations to make things better. At JB, an e-mail came out this AM regarding our new work agreement and it was interesting to see that the EMB pay scale was titled as Proposed. I know the CP has been approached by the pilot group in mass to discuss this. We are working for change here. Stay tuned and see what happens.

 

[P38JLightning]

guild concept

I don't know, but I kinda like it.

Sure it would be challenging to impliment, but everyone stands to gain in the long run. One way to "enforce" staying within what i'm sure would be the guild's generously low "minimums" for pay and work rules, etc. would be exclusive advancement within the guild for guild members.

No I'm not talking about a national seniority list. You wouldn't carry anything with you to another company, but no guild company could hire any pilot who did any work for any non guild company. This would be a huge incentive against those so called "free market" forces, especialy at the so called regional level that cause agressive under-bidding for PFG and PFU (pay for growth and pay for upgrades). I mean what's worse, to pay 10 grand for training ONCE (I didn't so don't even), or to happily give up 10 or 15 or more grand a year, year after year, just to score a quick upgrade?

You would still be free to go work for a non-guild company (and essentially become a scab) but you will then become a "lifer" there as you ain't gonna build time or get current and move on. So after a while there would be pressure to get your pay and work rules up for the sake of your own QOL. Sure you would have a few 55 year olds who would do it without fear of reprisal, but this would nip most of the intern/bridge program/young eager pilot willing to get to the majors "by any means necessary" which is one of, if not THE, biggest negative forces pulling our industry down right now.

Anyway I cast my vote for Ty Webb as Pilot Guild Development Think Tank Interim President. Don't worry General, I'm sure theres a cabinet position available somewhere in our brave new society for you.

 

[Ty Webb]

You can form all the guilds, unions, asociations or whatever, but at the end of the day, there's still that check hauler, frieght dog, military guy, or furloughed pilot ( no offense meant by any of the terms) who look to hauling pax as a way to a better quality of life.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my earlier post-

Legislation would be passed that all 121 pilots must be members of the Guild, period.


How do we enact this? Well, you have to show that it is more beneficial to the industry to have the Guild than to not have the Guild. If the industry continues its current decline, eventually the Government may have to insititute "Re-Regulation" or cough up subsidies, like they do for Amtrak.

If all the airlines are paying the same rate for the pilots, then they are all competing on a level playing field, at least in terms of pilot labor costs.

 

[sandman2122]

Hardy Har, Har!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Bus Drvr
You can form all the guilds, unions, asociations or whatever, but at the end of the day, there's still that check hauler, frieght dog, military guy, or furloughed pilot ( no offense meant by any of the terms) who look to hauling pax as a way to a better quality of life.

ALSO

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Bus Drvr
"I know the CP has been approached by the pilot group in mass to discuss this. We are working for change here. Stay tuned and see what happens."


JB Bus Drvr,

Just keep telling yourself that when you're flying @800-900 hrs annually and I'm flying @300 hrs. Now who has the better quality of life?

Also, it appears that the pilots at JB do have a union after all! Based on your post about some pilots discussing with management the entire pilot group's compensation requests. Must be awkward not knowing what some self-appointed pilots are negotiating on your behalf with no accountabilty besides a random nasty note in their locker - that's if you have lockers.

But that's just one "freight dog's" opinion.

 

[logjammer]

I don't think your the type of freight dog he means sandman. God, chill out. Call the pharmacist and get your script refilled.

 

[mar]

Logjammer...

...made me laugh

...not that kind of freight dog...

 

[Draginass]

Maybe I wasn't clear in my earlier post-

Legislation would be passed that all 121 pilots must be members of the Guild, period.


How do we enact this? Well, you have to show that it is more beneficial to the industry to have the Guild than to not have the Guild. If the industry continues its current decline, eventually the Government may have to insititute "Re-Regulation" or cough up subsidies, like they do for Amtrak.

If all the airlines are paying the same rate for the pilots, then they are all competing on a level playing field, at least in terms of pilot labor costs.

The guild idea is impractical. The politicians don't give a hoot about what happens to a relatively small group of dispersed workers like pilots. What they care about is cheap tickets for their constituants. They also don't give a hoot about service to small towns, unless it's in their district. The idea of passing legislation fixing pay rates just ain't gonna happen . . . no how, no way . . . and especially with a Republican Congress and President. When push comes to shove, it's not his CEO buddies that Bush is going to push over the cliff. Kerry's no better, although it hard to figure out what his gig is, he talks out of both sides of his face so much.

So, gentlemen. You'll take what management wants to give you or you can hit the road. Plenty of your "fellow" pilots ready to take your place for whatever they can get.

If you need to look at the model we're emulating . . . . . . look at bus drivers.

 

[philo beddoe]

FDJ2

You may as well complain about the rain ruining your saturday afternoon.

You will NEVER, EVER get people to stop trying to improve their position, even if that means taking a low-paying job.

Market forces are an unstoppable part of human nature.

Just becaues YOU were able to hold out for good jobs does not mean that everyone can do that. Some of us will have to accept other options.

So complain away, but you may as well be complaining about gravity or the weather.

How are you going to change people? You can't.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Sandman,

Glad you fly so little. BTW my quality of life is pretty good with 16-19 days off per month and most trips are commutable. As to talking to the CP, he is very approachable and if he had his way and it was pratical, he would get every pilot's opinion about the agreement that's been presented to us. Remember this and believe or not, he has the same agreement. I can say with pretty good confidence, the pilots I work with are a pretty squared away group of people who do look at the big picture and what's best for EVERBODY, not just themselves. So, if group of them catch the CP in the hall, crewroom or his office and voice their concerns, it not neccessarily a bad thing. It's kind of nice to have a boss who is easy to talk to and won't stab you in the back or put you on the sh1t list for speaking up. Is your bosses the same way? Maybe they are, then again maybe not.

 

[sandman2122]

Locker room hijinks!

How about: "Delta plus a nickle" per Fred Smith.

Read about our rocky history with management "promises" and you'll learn something. We all understand your "group" is still in the honeymoon phase with management, but if history is an indicator it won't last forever. And maybe that's not a bad thing, let's just call it a "natural evolution" of a maturing pilot group.

But hey sonny what do I know, I'm just a "freightdog" who enjoys not flying like a dog for overtime!

 

[PHXFLYR]

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