Pilot pay!!??

[Dizel8]

So I was thinking, with this whole debacle about payscales for pilots. How should one set scale, what is fair and equitable for us pilots? How do we decide if it is too low or acceptable.

Case in point, and I think it is too low btw, jetblue has decided to pay dependent upon the number of seats. 1st year A-320 pays $0.71 a seat as does the 190, 12 year pays $0.89 per seat.

Now, looking at www.airlinepilotpay.com, it appears, that there is wide variance not only between airlines on the same type, but no real cohesiveness as far as seats are concerned. I personally think, the more seats, the higher the pay, however, I cannot detect a pattern. By pattern I mean like jetblue, where there is one as shown above.

Look at this example: Comair, 12th year, CRJ 700 pays $94 an hour or $1.36 per seat. At DAL, the B-777 pays $320 an hour, which according to DAL website regarding number of seats, comes out to $1.15 per seat. Using the per seat formula, since the CRJ700 pays $1.36 per seat, the B-777 should pay $376.

Now, not picking on DAL or Comair, because the same can be found at NWA, AMR etc. Using this formula NWA should be paying the 12th year 747-400 Captain $769 if we use the DC-9 as a benchmark or $577 if we use the A-320. Currently, according to same website, he gets $273 per hour.

So, while stagelengths and missions are certainly different, there appears to be little transperancy as to how pay is determined, it looks to be more like: "This is what we feel happy with" or "We want more than xyz airline" or less as the case may be.

So I am pondering, how do we pilots determine what is acceptable and what is not or is it simply about what "feels" right?

 

[Frac Daddy]

So I was thinking, with this whole debacle about payscales for pilots. How should one set scale, what is fair and equitable for us pilots? How do we decide if it is too low or acceptable.

Case in point, and I think it is too low btw, jetblue has decided to pay dependent upon the number of seats. 1st year A-320 pays $0.71 a seat as does the 190, 12 year pays $0.89 per seat.

Now, looking at www.airlinepilotpay.com, it appears, that there is wide variance not only between airlines on the same type, but no real cohesiveness as far as seats are concerned. I personally think, the more seats, the higher the pay, however, I cannot detect a pattern. By pattern I mean like jetblue, where there is one as shown above.

Look at this example: Comair, 12th year, CRJ 700 pays $94 an hour or $1.36 per seat. At DAL, the B-777 pays $320 an hour, which according to DAL website regarding number of seats, comes out to $1.15 per seat. Using the per seat formula, since the CRJ700 pays $1.36 per seat, the B-777 should pay $376.

Now, not picking on DAL or Comair, because the same can be found at NWA, AMR etc. Using this formula NWA should be paying the 12th year 747-400 Captain $769 if we use the DC-9 as a benchmark or $577 if we use the A-320. Currently, according to same website, he gets $273 per hour.

So, while stagelengths and missions are certainly different, there appears to be little transperancy as to how pay is determined, it looks to be more like: "This is what we feel happy with" or "We want more than xyz airline" or less as the case may be.

So I am pondering, how do we pilots determine what is acceptable and what is not or is it simply about what "feels" right?

Applying the JBLU formula ($0.71/seat) to a 50-seat RJ captain pay of $35.50/hour. Also, a EMB120 Captain would get paid $21.30/hour for the first year . Is this acceptable?

 

[General Lee]

It will be because of the Jetblue rates.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Frank Bama]

My Romin noodle dinner tonight sure was good.

 

[Dizel8]

"Applying the JBLU formula ($0.71/seat) to a 50-seat RJ captain pay of $35.50/hour. Also, a EMB120 Captain would get paid $21.30/hour for the first year . Is this acceptable?"

No, I do not think it is, however, that was not was I asking. I was trying to figure out, how we pilots decide what is fair and what is not, because there appears to be no further thought, than what we feel is fair!

A DAL MD-11 Captain is $305, a Fedex MD-11 Captain is $206. A NWA DC-9 Captain is $191, a AA MD-80 Captain is $152. Which one is fair, which one would you accept?

Perhaps, it is simply a matter of what one can obtain!

"General Lee says: It will be because of the Jetblue rates".

I doubt it, because then all airlines would pay the same, which, as we have clearly seen, they do not. If AA were to get $340 and hour on the 777, do you think you would get it, conversely, since they are lower on the 777, how did you manage to get higher pay. While airlines do not exist in a vacuum, what happens at A does not neccesarily happen at B!

 

[TonyC]

I think productivity - - the amount added to the Company's bottom line - - should be factored into the equation. In other words, flying a 150-seat airplane might not be 150% as profitable as flying a 100-seat airplane. It might bring 180% of the profit due to economies of scale. Using a simple linear equation tied to number of seats fails to recognize the PROFIT that the Company enjoys as a result of the pilot working.


Care to take a guess which airplane makes more money for the company, a passenger-laden trans-Pacific MD-11, or a cargo-laden MD-11 on the same route?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I think we should work for tips.

Suggested guidelines:
$2 per passenger for Captains
$1 per passenger for F/Os

It'd be a big pay raise for most of us anyway even if only 2/3rds of the pax tipped us.

(tongue in cheek of course)

 

[pilotyip]

AA pay

As announced in the last issue of ATW, (The Magazine of Airline Management). AA was the only profitable legacy airline in the first quarter of this year. They attributed it to route restructuring, major increase in employee productivity, and concessions from employee groups. This is probably why an AA MD-80 is making $152/hr, and a USA Jet DC-9 Capt makes $170/hr. There is potential for flame bait here, but it is not intended. AA management has done the right things. Would you as a pilot rather be working for AA or one of the legacy carrier still bleeding into BK.?

 

[taxionewire]

Kinda Personal

"So I am pondering, how do we pilots determine what is acceptable and what is not or is it simply about what "feels" right?"

That's a completely subjective and personal decision. The question you have to ask is: "is this job worth it to me?"

Some of my friends, languishing in the regionals, have finally said "no" and moved onto different industries. The prospect of making 20-30K for the next 7 years was no longer worth it to them, so they're gone.

In my case, I am less now then as I did as a Navy LT (3 years out of flight school). That's why I am preparing to leave this industry. Its no longer worth it to me to stay. I can do better outside, I've priced it, and interviewed.

The truth is, because of the glut of pilots on the market, guys like Neeleman, Branson and Leonard know that they can get the "market rate" for pilots. Neeleman apparently thinks the "market rate" for a 100 seat Captain is now less than Comair pays its folks. If you want to change it, you don't write letters to him. unless of course your letter said: "Dear Dave, raise the rate or you are cordially invited to the ALPA, SWAPA, CAPA, APA presentation we are having next week."

The only reason he unilaterally raised the 320 pay was because he knew he couldn't compete with LUV pay scales, and he knew because he was making double digit margins, some on the property, despite the anti-union drivel they spouted in the interview, would no doubt start to grumble about organizing if Dave was keeping all the goodies for himself.

Now that the SEC seems certain to start expensing options, Dave is going to have to rethink his compensation plan for you all. Its easy to be the option fairy, doling out options to young pilots that won't excercise them for years and years when they don't show up anywhere. But once you have to start paying for them up front, my guess is Dave is going to be a tad less liberal with them. Then you will really have to think about the whole notion of what you are willing to accept in terms of pay.

 

[80drvr]

"General Lee says: It will be because of the Jetblue rates".

I doubt it, because then all airlines would pay the same, which, as we have clearly seen, they do not. If AA were to get $340 and hour on the 777, do you think you would get it, conversely, since they are lower on the 777, how did you manage to get higher pay. While airlines do not exist in a vacuum, what happens at A does not neccesarily happen at B!

Don't believe this to be true. When AA/APA started negotiating in 2001 the company opened with DAL plus $1. When the company sought concessions in 2003 it was UAL BK rates that were the benchmark. Pattern bargaining is real.

 

[On Your Six]

Dave Neelmen (spelling?) brings consumers cheaper fares - and everyone is happy for it. But he has also brought a profession to its knees - this benchmark will affect EVERY salary negotiation going forward (everyone must be more competitive vs. the LCCs...). Unfortunately, the Jet Blue pilots can do NOTHING about it...

 

[Lear70]

Dizel, there's a couple things to consider about Northwest. Their pay isn't linear because it's a complicated formula based on number of seats, stage lengths, day/night, domestic/international, and some other weird numbers that make all the aircraft have strange pay rates when compared against each other.

That said, someone else said it best - each airline has different values, different (somewhat) business strategies, and different profitability, so I don't find it terribly surprising that all the airlines' pay is different.

It will be because of the Jetblue rates.....

I'm not too sure of that - I don't think RJ pay will dip any lower than it already is, but I definitely believe it will make it harder for all of us (such as Expressjet, PCL) to raise the bar to meet the Comair level which is/was the goal. Pattern bargaining WILL be used, it's up to each individual carrier to explain how jetBlue does things we don't do, therefore can't be used as a comparison, then insist on that point. It WILL lead to stalemate in discussions, then we'll see just how dedicated our pilots are when we ask for a strike vote.

 

[GoFaster]

I am so tired of this. We pilots are such suckers. In days gone by being a pilot meant that you lived in a very nice neighborhood with doctors, denist and lawyers. It meant that your wife did not have to work, and yet you could still maintain your lifestyle. Now we have this. What the hell is this? We have our youngest pilots working for 21 an hour and our highly experienced "new major" pilots working for peanuts too......I ask where does this leave us, except on a downward spiral. It is all so depressing. Hang in there Delta and Northwest.....hang in there boys your doing it for all of us....Thanks.

GoFaster

 

[ThisistheDream]

Pilot pay for the same equipment and years of service should vary from airline to airline. Why, becuase they are different companies! Do we see all teachers, lawyers, doctors, car mechanics etc make the same for doing the same job. Some companies pay more some pay less so when we compare what you make at Delta vs.Fedex there should be a differenece. and i would agree why dont we start taking tips. we could take a 50% pay cut if we could get a one dollar from each paseenger as they get off the plane. the airline could reduce fares even more now and just require each passenger to give each crew member a 1 dollar tip as they get off the plane. we all would make more money.

 

[Saabslime]

In a perfect world, all the pilot unions and even pilots who are not union would get together and establish acceptable rates for a particular airframe. Hey management of xyz airline, you want to fly the A320/319? Here is what it's going to cost you and so on......There would be no negotiating rates for new contracts. Nobody undercutting another for business. You either pay this rate or you don't fly that aircraft. Instead the focus would be on negotiating quality of life and benefit items. These would be the things that distinguish one company from another in terms of who you'd like to work for.

 

[taxionewire]

That world used to exist

In a perfect world, all the pilot unions and even pilots who are not union would get together and establish acceptable rates for a particular airframe. Hey management of xyz airline, you want to fly the A320/319? Here is what it's going to cost you and so on......There would be no negotiating rates for new contracts. Nobody undercutting another for business. You either pay this rate or you don't fly that aircraft. Instead the focus would be on negotiating quality of life and benefit items. These would be the things that distinguish one company from another in terms of who you'd like to work for.

Hey, that sounds cool. We could call that world ALPA, and then no pilots would be incented to undercut others in hopes of chasing option money.

 

[philo beddoe]

Pay rates based ONLY on seat size is really stupid, as the above post points out nicely.

What is needed is a fixed base rate, lets say something like $50 per hour for a 30-seat t-prop CA. THEN we increase based on # of seats, kind of like a pay override.

An ALPA-determined national minimum pay rate would solve a lot of problems, and push lowball carriers to pay up or shut down.

Hey, I like that for a contract negotiations slogan.

Pay up or shut down!

 

[pilotyip]

lost $B's

Hey guys all the airlines in the US have lost more since 2001 than they have made in there entire history of all the airlines since time started. How are hey going to pay more money to anyone. In fact ATW had an editorial about "Airline Management an Endanger Species", basically nobody wants to it, because you work too hard for the resutls. You can go into Health Finance, and other fields and make more money. This is not just CEO, but other big guys CFO, COO, etc. My brother-in law, owns a Muffler Shop, (non-college grad) lives in a neighborhood with Doctors, Lawyers. and other porfessionals because he makes over $200K per year. Sends his kids to private schools, lots of vacations, etc. You fly airplanes becasue you like to fly airplanes, if you want to make money go to a trade school out of high school and run a muffler shop.

 

[SilentBob]

Haven't we figured it out yet? If we want to make big bucks in the airline business, we have to be management.

 

[klhoard]

Fly for tips??

I think we should work for tips.
Suggested guidelines:
$2 per passenger for Captains
$1 per passenger for F/Os

Just make sure you send around the plate before you start the approach. I doubt you're going to collect much once you get them safely thru the thunderstorms and on the ground.

BTW - this scheme kinda leaves us cargo haulers out in the cold!!