pilot contract negotiations

[AviatorTim]

I've heard a lot of talk lately about contracts at one carieer setting the "standard" or raising/lowering the "bar" for contracts at another carieer. Can someone explain this idea?

I can't help but notice that shortly after Comair set the "standard" for the highest paid contract, Mesa signed the lowest paid contract. And less than a year after Mesa signed the lowest paid contract, ASA is negotiating for Comair-like pay. Why didn't the high standard of Comair contract help Mesa? Why isn't Mesa's low standard hurting ASA?

If contracts set the "bar" why haven't we seen a slowly increasing standard with each new contract being slightly higher than the previous contract signed at another carier? Instead we're seeing high-low-high-high-low-low, etc.

It seems like contract negotiations have more to do with the size of the pilot group (and thus their clout), the strength of their union, the lucrativeness (or lack their of) of their codeshare contracts, the state of the economy at the time, and, lately, whether their owners have alter ego carieers (ie. Mesa/Freedom, Mesaba/Big Sky, Chautauqua/Republic, etc).

For example, Mesa's contract apparently had everything to do with Freedom and nothing to do with Comair's pay. Comair's negotiations went so well largely because their pilot group was willing to strike and because it was negotiated pre 9/11. It would appear to me that the highest and lowest paid contracts in our industry had everything to do circumstances at the time of negotiation and little or nothing to do with what anyone else was making.

Is there someone out there who has actually sat at the negotiating table who can shed some real insight into how this works?

(yes, I am pro union, and no, I am not advocating lower pay. It's a sincere question).

 

[ifly4food]

I've heard a lot of talk lately about contracts at one carieer setting the "standard" or raising/lowering the "bar" for contracts at another carieer. Can someone explain this idea?

Do you really want an explanation or are you just trying to start a war...?

I can't help but notice that shortly after Comair set the "standard" for the highest paid contract, Mesa signed the lowest paid contract. And less than a year after Mesa signed the lowest paid contract, ASA is negotiating for Comair-like pay. Why didn't the high standard of Comair contract help Mesa? Why isn't Mesa's low standard hurting ASA?

Oh, so you're on the ASA negotiating committee? What makes you think you have any idea what kind of pay ASA pilots are negotiating for? We're not even a year into negotiations, and money hasn't even entered the room yet.

If contracts set the "bar" why haven't we seen a slowly increasing standard with each new contract being slightly higher than the previous contract signed at another carier? Instead we're seeing high-low-high-high-low-low, etc.

Have you picked up a newspaper in the last two years or so? Is your crashpad in Antarctica? It's hard to negotiate an industry standard contract while the industry crumbles around you. The Delta pilots are being asked for a 22% pay cut. That's a big deal.

It seems like contract negotiations have more to do with the size of the pilot group (and thus their clout), the strength of their union, the lucrativeness (or lack their of) of their codeshare contracts, the state of the economy at the time, and, lately, whether their owners have alter ego carieers (ie. Mesa/Freedom, Mesaba/Big Sky, Chautauqua/Republic, etc).

Ya think?!?

For example, Mesa's contract apparently had everything to do with Freedom and nothing to do with Comair's pay. Comair's negotiations went so well largely because their pilot group was willing to strike and because it was negotiated pre 9/11. It would appear to me that the highest and lowest paid contracts in our industry had everything to do circumstances at the time of negotiation and little or nothing to do with what anyone else was making.

You make a lot of assumptions there. Comair had little to do with "willingness to strike". The strike didn't get them any windfall over the previous TA. Mesa is a very different airline than Comair. Their previous pay was so low, to raise it to Comair levels would have been an unatainable increase for one contract (like 30%?). You must raise it in steps.
You are correct in saying that timing has a lot to do with it.

(yes, I am pro union, and no, I am not advocating lower pay. It's a sincere question).

I'll take your word for it. You came on awfully strong to claim naivete now.

As I said, I think the biggest reason you see the up and down trend is mostly dependent on who goes next. Let's not pretend a company like Great Lakes or Mesa can go from industry bottom to industry leader in one contract. This takes many steps. Comair was already near the top so it wasn't such a big step. The industry climate has a lot to do with it too. Comair signed their deal in the tail end of the good times. Now, the industry is shrinking, and it's hard to squeeze more money out of managers who think you should take a pay cut (ignore their bonuses and bankruptcy-protected pension plans).

 

[Blutarski]

IFFF,

Xanax prescription run out or something? The guy just asked a question or two that, while they may seem obvious to one who has worked in the industry for a cycle or two, he thinks are relevant and he is interested in our opinion on them. Ease up my brother. -Bluto out!

 

[AviatorTim]

Re: Re: pilot contract negotiations

Let's not pretend a company like Great Lakes or Mesa can go from industry bottom to industry leader in one contract. This takes many steps.

There in is heart of my question. Didn't Mesa accept a LOWER paid contract (a step backwards) in order to block Freedom?

 

[Long Time Gone]

First of all, no one seems to consider the amount of pay ALG and PDT pilots were making prior to the JFJ bullsh*t. They are still making more first year pay than CMR or ASA. Long term is definately more, however.

Second, Delta pilots are requested to take a 26.5% pay cut, not 22%. The cut is proposed from the May '02 pay raise, not the May '03 pay raise. The whole picture is proposed to be 31%, because they are also requested to forego the 4.5% automatic pay raise in May '04, also.

FDJ, we're waiting for your input.........here it comes..........waiting..........

 

[Publishers]

timing

When you ask about real estate, it is location, location, location.

In contracts, it is timing, timing, timing.

 

[RocketRob]

Its seems that each pilot group has much in common but also has it's own particular interests at stake in their contract. Timing is also key to any negotiating. Mesa got stuck with crappy timing, crappy management (ornstein), and Freedumb air problem. So they took what they got in order to stop ornstein from screwing them any further with Freedumb (at least so I've heard). Everybody is trying to pick up the bar for oneanother while staying cometitive to prevent flying loss to another the more ruthless carriers (management, "we need cutbacks for you to have jobs bullsh!t!").

 

[AviatorTim]

It seems like contract negotiations have more to do with the size of the pilot group (and thus their clout), the strength of their union, the lucrativeness (or lack their of) of their codeshare contracts, the state of the economy at the time, and, lately, whether their owners have alter ego carieers (ie. Mesa/Freedom, Mesaba/Big Sky, Chautauqua/Republic, etc).

Ya think?!?

Gee, "Ifly4food", it almost sounds like you're agreeing with me. I thought your position was contracts were all about where the "bar" was set by the last contract signed at another carieer. Are you acknowleding that the economy and alter ego carieers effect the bargaining process?