Pick an Airplane...

[NoPax]

Got asked what I thought about purchasing a Cessna 421C for a single airplane, single-pilot flight department, and for the most part, I feel really good about them, however...

How do you think the annual budget would compare to a Cheyenne IIXL, or Aero Commander 690 with -5 or -10 engines?

King Airs (C90s and earlier) are out of the equation - can't justify the purchase price to performance, and anything bigger/newer just costs too much.

The guy wants the airplane to be able to carry 4-5 adults, with bags, mostly fly within Texas and the surrounding states. Seldom go further - possibly western CO, WY, MO. He's sure he has a need to fly it a couple of times a week, and wants the availability of an airplane, overall, I'm thinking a total of between 250-300 hours on the 421C

The main nagging doubt I have over the 421C, is the wing-spar AD on the very similar 402C, and 414A. Maybe a mechanic can chime in and explain the differences between the 421C spar and the other airplanes. If there is little, or no difference, and the reason the 421C isn't included in the AD is due to FAA 'logic' then I completely understand!

I'd like his first aviation purchase to go smoothly, and for him to be happy with it for years to come.

 

[Lostdog65]

The Commander (-5 or -10) can be maintenance hogs. Good airplanes tho...fast and can carry the weight. 421 not bad but slower than the turbines.

Eric

 

[Headwind]

Engine reserves for the GTSIO-520 (short TBO) and the PT-6 are close per hour with the PT-6 a little more. It's 50,000 each per (if you're lucky) 1600 hours or 100,000 per 3500 hours on the PT-6. The Cheyenne II XL cost more to purchase and should be much more reliable if flying 300 hours per year.
I have operated both and feel safest in the Cheyenne.
With the Cheyenne we did scheduled maintenance every 100 hours. With the 421 it was unscheduled maintenance every couple of trips.

 

[onthebeach]

This comes up a lot

Folks feel they can't afford to buy a new twin-turbine, but figure they can afford to feed & fix a 25-year old recip.

Guess they figure they can also afford to take a bath at re-sale time.

The best advice you can give your man is to think outside the box and look at a used PC-12...if you can find one. If that's still too rich for his blood, tell him to find a partner. Two principals flying a plane 400 hours a year...AND splitting the payments...is a lot more economical than one flying 200 hours a year and watching the paint craze and the seals dry the rest of the time.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Seriously look at the Commander. It does VERY VERY well in known icing (TKS Equipped), and like previously said, it can carry the weight. For a pre-buy and MX, get in touch with Central Air in Kansas City (MKC) and let them do the work. It's not the best place in the world to be a pilot in terms of pay, but you will never hear one of the Central Air guys talk about broken airplanes or $hitty MX. Bob Hoover used them for some of his MX and I know that cause I was working line at the time and personally put it in Hanger 5B to have the work preformed.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Folks feel they can't afford to buy a new twin-turbine, but figure they can afford to feed & fix a 25-year old recip.

Guess they figure they can also afford to take a bath at re-sale time.

The best advice you can give your man is to think outside the box and look at a used PC-12...if you can find one. If that's still too rich for his blood, tell him to find a partner. Two principals flying a plane 400 hours a year...AND splitting the payments...is a lot more economical than one flying 200 hours a year and watching the paint craze and the seals dry the rest of the time.

Single-engine is OK. Day VMC.
I know, I know, turbine reliability. I have had a jet engine failure. I have a friend that bobbed in a raft for 8 hours in the North Pacific after his PC-12 PT-6 failed. Could have been worse. It could have been at night over the Rockies.

 

[Ultraman]

Which Commanders were TKS-equipped?

 

[HawkerF/O]

Which Commanders were TKS-equipped?

http://www.centralairsouthwest.com/saftey.html

http://www.centralairsouthwest.com/aircraft.html

 

[HawkerF/O]

I have a friend that bobbed in a raft for 8 hours in the North Pacific after his PC-12 PT-6 failed.

Would love to hear more of this story if you feel like posting it. If not, no big deal, just thought I would ask.

 

[dhc8fo]

My company just did the wing spar on the 421C because the plane hit 10K hours. Not required, but peace of mind. 40 grand a side. Not as bad as I thought it was going to be, really.

 

[NoPax]

Hawker F/O, I know all about Central Air Southwest - I'm currently working for them and agree completely - I love the Commander! However, I'm flying the piston version, TKS equipped etc, but if I sold the guy on the AC-690, I would definately try to use Central's Maintenance for the work required.

Another airplane came to mind - the Conquest I. Would this possibly fall prey to same Wing Spar AD worries too?

Same question again - how much to budget for annually, after the purchase of all of these airplanes.

I've figured, very roughly, that flying the 421C for 250-300 hours per year comes to about $90,000, in fixed and variable operating costs (excluding the 'Chief Pilot' salary). One way I'm looking at this is 250-300 hours per year in a 421C is maybe around 47,500-57,000 NM (using a 190kt average block speed).

The AC690 operates in the low 20s, time to climb is 20 minutes then cruise is 260kts (-5) or 300kts (-10). Figure an average block time of 240 and 280 respectively, and that's 200-240 per year (-5), or 160-200 per year (-10) -almost half that of the 421C.

Is the above sound logic?

 

[G100driver]

I cut my teeth on the AC-690B with -10's. It was a great airplane ... key word was. The newest airplane that you can find is 20 years old. Ever try finding NEW parts for a 20 year old airplane.

They are maintenance hogs and noisy as heck. You cannot fly above FL240 without a 10,000' cabin. I could go on about the micky mouse steering and the leaky fuel bladders but I think that you get the point.

Get a King Air. At least they are still in production and parts are more readily avialable.

 

[NoPax]

Get a King Air. At least they are still in production and parts are more readily available

I'm aware of that, thank-you. No King Air!:smash:

There's nothing wrong with the steering on the Commanders...it's just different!

 

[some_dude]

He's comparing it to a 421, for crying out loud. I think the 690 is a fine alternative for the money.

Yes, they're old, but so are the 421s. And I doubt the Commander would be any worse from a maintenance perspective.

Everything in that price range is going to be the same age-- Cheyennes, 421, Conquest, Commander, so I'd say age isn't a big factor.

I cut my teeth on the AC-690B with -10's. It was a great airplane ... key word was. The newest airplane that you can find is 20 years old. Ever try finding NEW parts for a 20 year old airplane.

They are maintenance hogs and noisy as heck. You cannot fly above FL240 without a 10,000' cabin. I could go on about the micky mouse steering and the leaky fuel bladders but I think that you get the point.

 

[421Driver]

We have 4 of the old 421B's, and used to have a C. Boss sold that one to standardize the fleet. The 421C is a nice plane, quiet for the passengers, and runs well when properly maintained. The trick is finding someone who is experienced in maintaining your type. The trailing link gear is nice if you aren't used to landing 421's, but not necesssary IMO.

The wing spar AD applies to the B model type wing (and may not be included depending on which FSDO inspector you talk to) with tip tanks. Our costs were in line with dhc8fo's for the spar. The 421C was not included.

With your access to mechanics for the 690, that may be a solid choice. Just remember that a $400k airplane is a $400k airplane. If you are looking at two planes with different performance at the same price, there's a reason for that.