PIC Time - the truth?

[Crizz]

I understand the whole "1000 Turbine PIC" goal that everyone parrots when asked how to get in at a career airline. I also know that the market is very saturated with people that meet that criteria. Does 1000 cut it anymore? Is anyone getting hired with less? How much more does it take? I have also heard of people saying that your time has to be in aircraft at least XXXXX lbs to be considered. This rules out alot of turbine aircraft. Would 1000-1500 hours in a King Air get you on with SWA (or others)? I've heard of the guy flying the turbine ag-cat that got on with SWA. Is KA vs SF340 vs CRJ time all the same? What do they really want?

I would just like some constructive answers to help me decide my path, so please dont ruin this thread with BS. If I misspelled a word, I'm deeply sorry - but dont take 3 posts to tell me about it. Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

1000 PIC Turbine is not enough. It is the minimum requirement to accept your app. Unless you get lucky and have friends in high places.

I hear at SW they try to interview everyone, so if you meet their mins they'll put you in a stack, doesn't matter what you flew/fly. But, I think I recall SWA raising their mins recently to reflect the reality of the hiring over there. Any SWA guys care to comment?

My airline won't be hiring off the street any time soon so we don't count. Not sure about CAL or Air Tran, but I'm gonna say 3000 pic turbine is more the reality of the situation to be competetive.

So what do you do? Go get it however you can, don't listen to the little voice in your head that tries to get you down and don't listen to guys on this board that tell you to get a job at Wendy's instead. This is still a great job and you will eventually make a decent living at an airline.

Good luck.

 

[Flyby1206]

Its all about 'who ya know.' Even if you have 4000hrs pic turbojet heavy its not easy to get an interview at fedex/swa without knowing some people.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

That's a good point, never be shy about meeting people at an airline you want to work for. Everyone knows the routine and most will be willing to lend a hand.

 

[Stealthh21]

1000 PIC Turbine is not enough. It is the minimum requirement to accept your app. Unless you get lucky and have friends in high places.

I hear at SW they try to interview everyone, so if you meet their mins they'll put you in a stack, doesn't matter what you flew/fly. But, I think I recall SWA raising their mins recently to reflect the reality of the hiring over there. Any SWA guys care to comment?

I didn't know about SWA doing that. I checked and you are right, they did change it to 1300 PIC. I just hit 1000. That always happends to me. Everytime I meet a time, the requirments go up. No biggie. I can wait.

 

[gt1900]

1000 PIC turbine won't get you too far these days. However, turboprop PIC is still a good thing. I have gotten calls from two majors with 3000 PIC turbine and two turboprop type ratings..... I would think with 2000 hrs, maybe the majors will start to look at you. When you hit 2500-3000 you should be competitive!!
Good luck!!

 

[firstthird]

Southwest no longer says that we interview everyone who meets the minimums. That used to be the case but a few years ago, SWA went to a 'competitive screen' meaning we call in people we want to interview, not everyone who meets the mins. (although our acceptance rate has not gone up any/much that I'm aware of. I still hear between 1/3 and 1/4 of those interviewed.)

The PIC did recently increase from 1000 to 1300. Supposedly, that was to more accurately reflect what it takes to get hired. A two edged sword since it could be a raw deal if you had just gotten 1000 pic and sprung for a type but it should prevent people in the future from paying for a type if they aren't really competitive yet; and that's a good thing.

 

[Formula1]

I had less than 1000 turbine PIC when I was hired at ATA- now I am furloughed and looking for another job at a Major. I was hired at AWA last year prior to the merger with US Airways and that is probably not going to work out so I had to suck it up and go get another job as a Turbo-prop Captain so that I can get more Turbine PIC.

I will not leave this job until I have enough turbine PIC to at least meet and exceed the minimums of all of the Major Airlines that I would like to work for.

I never thought that I would ever have to worry about getting more PIC turbine time as I expected to retire from ATA and look at what happened- I am back flying turbo-props to get the PIC time that I should have gotten 5 years ago when I was a Captain at my previous regional airline.

Bottom line is- you can get hired at several majors without alot of PIC turbine time based on who you know. And you may be able to have a nice career and retire from that major and never have to worry about it again- or you can have it happen like it did to me and many other furloughed major airline pilots these days who got hired at XYZ major airline with little or no PIC turbine, never got to upgrade at said major and then suddenly found ourselves getting laid off and wishing we had more PIC turbine time so that we could be able to apply everywhere we wanted.

For me it has come full circle.

 

[gkrangers]

Why didn't it work out with AWA?

 

[puddlejumper101]

It's all who you know, like someone said earlier. To play this game you have to meet the mins...not shatter them, just break them, and then meet people. (or the other way around). Point is, no connections, no interview...unless your experience is such were you stick out without someone pushing your stuff through. SWA comes up a lot as an airline that you don't necessarily need to know people to get in...it's true, but its harder. The type, for example, is a way to stick out of the pack for them. You will probably get an interview (nothing to do with getting hired) if you have a type and meet their mins a lot quicker than if you don't. The 1300 turbine PIC req is really more for military guys and civilian guys with types. No type, it takes a lot more. CAL, FEDEX, UPS...totally different...there you can have 1000hours PIC, 10000 PIC, whatever...it does not matter. Those airlines are all based on connections...so much so at CAL if you have a connection but lack the time it does not matter. Their Requirements are pretty low...so with the right connection you are in. But...no connection forget it. I heard someone say that at SWA there are approximately 600 apps with types, the rest don't have types. This means if you have a type, your pile is way smaller than if you don't. I bet out of the 600 (just hearsay, can't imagine it being over 1000), they have already interviewed half of those guys once already. Jetblue and Airtran as far as I know are also airlines were you don't have to have monster connections. Jetblue, however, does have the 20,000lbs requirement, an airtran the 500 121 PIC Requirement. However you look at it dude, best advice I can give you is get turbine PIC...and find a way (whatever it takes) to network. Eventually the network will get you hired more so than the PIC time.

 

[Crizz]

Thanks for all the valuable info guys. I may have an opportunity as PIC in a KA200, but would only accumulate 300-400 hrs a year. Im contemplating doing that versus going to a bottom feeder regional with known quick upgrade and flying my pants off... I think QOL would be substantially better with the KA job, but its going to take me quite awhile to have decent time, and even then it will still be in a 12500lb KA200.

 

[TWA Dude]

Why didn't it work out with AWA?

He was in the pool awaiting a training date.

 

[MalteseX]

As a general rule:

1. Look at the airline's application requirements. If you meet the mins they require, you pass this hurdle. If they say they require 1000, they require 1000. A few places will "compete" resumes--higher times are scored higher, but this is not the case at most. The mins are the mins.

2. To get an interview, you have to know someone at that airline, preferably 3 or more people. At some places, this is a "hard" requirement. You will not get an interview with 1000 or 7000 PIC turbine unless someone recommends you from "inside".

The latter rule is the controlling rule in most cases. This is why many guys will not get called from CAL, UPS, FedEx, etc. even with thousands of hours of jet time.

Build your time and network, network, network!!!!!

 

[Truckdriver]

Not a requirement, but it helps. CAL and JBLU are hiring guys with less than 1000 PIC and DAL hired guys without it back before 2001. I would still get it if you can because it is still somewhat of a experience benchmark in the industry.

 

[Ready2Fly]

UPS hired a guy with less than 400 hrs turbine PIC, all part 135.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I understand the whole "1000 Turbine PIC" goal that everyone parrots when asked how to get in at a career airline. I also know that the market is very saturated with people that meet that criteria. Does 1000 cut it anymore? Is anyone getting hired with less? How much more does it take? I have also heard of people saying that your time has to be in aircraft at least XXXXX lbs to be considered. This rules out alot of turbine aircraft. Would 1000-1500 hours in a King Air get you on with SWA (or others)? I've heard of the guy flying the turbine ag-cat that got on with SWA. Is KA vs SF340 vs CRJ time all the same? What do they really want?

I would just like some constructive answers to help me decide my path, so please dont ruin this thread with BS. If I misspelled a word, I'm deeply sorry - but dont take 3 posts to tell me about it. Thanks in advance for the help.

Right now, 1000 PIC turbine, whether it's in a 747 or a Caravan doesn't really mean squat unless you know the right people. As far as what kind of PIC turbine, that depends on the airline. SWA will interview almost anyone that meets the mins. CAL won't touch you unless you have 3000 hours of space shuttle command time, and an internal rec from the CEO. It's just all dependent on how bad people are needed. Right now, there are a gazillion guys out there looking for jobs, and not many jobs to go around, so the ones getting on are the ones that know the right people. I personally know of a couple of guys that got on at CAL with ZERO turbine PIC because they know the right people. I know a guy with about 500 turbine PIC that knows the head of a training dept. there and he can't get them to give him the time of day. Hell, I meet the mins for CAL, and I have an internal rec, but they won't even look at me.

Basically, right now it is so competitive, it's all about who you know. Once you meet the mins, whether it's KA time of 747 time, it's all about networking. Hell, pre 9/11, every single major airline out there was hiring guys with 2000 hours and 500 hours of Kingair PIC. In those days, 1000 PIC turbine was golden. You went to a regional, pulled gear for about a year, upgraded, got your PIC, and left. No recs, no nothin. The guys that had recs got on with nothing. Now, nobody is hiring, and there's a million guys on the street, so it's competitive as hell. It's just all dependent on the times.

Airtran wants 500 121 PIC. Nothing in their mins about turbine PIC, though, so a Cape Air 402 pilot is more qualified in their eyes than a 5000 hour BBJ captain.

FedEx and UPS won't even talk to you unless you have 3 internal recs, one of which is a "sponsor" for you.

SWA just raised their mins to 1300 turbine PIC. Getting an interview there isn't terribly hard once you meet the mins, getting on there is hell. Once again, if you don't know anybody, your chances aren't that good.

To get on at CAL you need to have landed on the moon, have at least a 13 inch pecker, and won some type of Nobel prize. Or you must be sleeping with the HR lady that picks interviewees from the thousands of qualified applicants they have.

JetBlue is 1000 PIC turbine min. Competitive is about 3000 PIC turbine, or a Blue Dart.

That's about the jist of it. I say take your Kingair job and enjoy a good QOL. The market sucks right now. I'd say anything beats a regional. Get a job that you'll enjoy, make a decent living at, and wait out the storm. Eventually, the market will get better. The regionals are beginning to have problems finding qualified applicants, and that will trickle up to the majors sooner or later. In the meantime, you'll be flying PIC, probably making more money than a CRJ guy, and enjoying your life a helluva lot more. Or you might get stuck on corporate for good. Hell, I love it.

Good luck!

 

[texarkana]

UPS hired a guy with less than 400 hrs turbine PIC, all part 135.

How do you know this? Oh, right, you're a captain at a major. Sorry, captain.

 

[canyonblue737]

Its all about 'who ya know.' Even if you have 4000hrs pic turbojet heavy its not easy to get an interview at fedex/swa without knowing some people.

you guys sure don't have your info right about SWA (about fedex you're right.)

1. SWA requires 1300 PIC Turbine to apply.
2. Getting an interview at SWA has *NOTHING* to do with who you know. In fact there is no avenue for a current pilot or employee of SWA to help the process along at all, no bringing in a resume to the chief pilot here. Getting an interview is 100% dependent on your application online and the monthly blend of people the "People Department" (our HR) want to bring in for an interview.
3. Once you get an interview having Letters of Recommendations from SWA pilots are very useful and can help get you the job. However if you a do a good job in the interview not knowing anyone at SWA won't prevent you from getting the job.
4. SWA interviews and hires people with all types of PIC Turbine time... airline, military, corporate, you name it. It seems based on my experience they interview airline and military folks with closer to the minimum total time required (1300 PIC turbine) then guys/girls from the other realms.
5. Once you get an interview at SWA it is a pretty clean slate compared to everyone going into the interview. They won't call you in to the interview and then later turn you down because you don't have enough experience. If they call you for an interview then 100% of what goes on from that point on is how they view your personality and if it fits with the culture of SWA.

 

[Crizz]

Again, thanks for all the info guys. I've definately not ignored the networking part, but without the published mins it doesnt matter how many people you know (unless you're really lucky).

You guys gave me exactly what I was looking for.:beer: