PIC time (help for a military pilot)..

[mudkow60]

Ok... please don't flame me.


I was looking thru the definitions of PIC time in the FAR/AIM. I am a military helo pilot and I had a quick question.

When I was totalling up my times for a rating I was getting, the person at the airport said that I could count all my helo time as PIC time if it was after I was checked out and qualified for that helicopter. Is this true?

Thanks.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No need to flame. Military logging rules and civilian FAA logging rules are very different. The FAA rules allow logging of command time under circumstances in which you are not in command.

I don't know enough about the military logging rules to be much help, but if no one else can help either, you might take a look here: http://logbook.navalaviator.net/

This guy wrote a free logbook program for navy and air force pilots that apparently also puts things in the proper FAA columns.

 

[mudkow60]

Thanks. That looks like a neat program.


The reason why I was asking is that I have approx. 1400 helo hours. The Navy logs First Pilot time, Second Pilot time, and Aircraft Commander time. As I was told, if you are rated in that helo, you can log all of the flight time as PIC time in the civilian log book (or resume, as is my case). I was just wondering if this is true. Seems to hold weight against how the regs. define PIC.

 

[skiddriver]

Mudkow,

Unfortunately, the person at the airport is wrong.

The following regards submitting military time to the FAA for the purposes of qualifying for FAA ratings. Doc's FAR website has a lot of discussions around this subject, and good references given in the discussions. Use the search mode: http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/

The rule of thumb is that you either have to be the assigned aircraft commander for the flight, or you have to actually be twiddling the sticks. Specifically:

You can log all AC time as PIC.

When not assigned as the AC for a flight, you can still log all FPT as PIC if:
1) You are a rated military aviator (some exceptions when you can log flight school time as PIC, see below).
2) You are AC rated in the aircraft (some exceptions here too, see below).

You cannot log CPT as PIC if you are not the AC on the flight. It doesn't matter if you are rated as an AC or not.

Exceptions:

Flight school time:
1) You can always log solo time as PIC.
2) You can log FPT as PIC before you get your wings, providing you hold an FAA rating for the aircraft category and class, and providing the aircraft does not require a type rating (unless you hold that FAA type rating). So if you had an FAA SEL rating when you were in primary, you could log all your T-34 FPT as PIC.

PIC time if you aren't AC rated:
1) You can always log solo time as PIC.
2) If you are a rated military aviator, and are flying an aircraft that does not require an FAA type rating, and you hold the appropriate FAA category and class rating, you can log FPT as PIC. So if you got your FAA rotary wing ratings sometime after your first helicopter AC check, and then snagged a left seat ride in a UH-1N (small helicopter not requiring a type rating) you could log the FPT as PIC.

Times you can't log FPT as PIC:
1) You aren't AC rated and you don't hold the required FAA category, class, and type rating (as applicable). The CH-46 has a civilian type rating required to act as PIC, so you couldn't log FPT in it as PIC as a non-AC unless you held that FAA rating.

 

[MTpilot]

As far as submitting military time for FAA ratings, I think he covered that pretty well above. As far as putting stuff on your resume, If you are appropriatly rated for the aircraft you can "log" it as PIC. I have no experience with the military (other than the freedom I enjoy) but I would say if your loooking for work in civilian aviation nobody is going to balk at you logging pic for an airframe you are rated in, as long as you can fly the hell out of that thing and give good briefings on dealing with systems failures.

 

[mudkow60]

Starting to get a bit more understandable. All my HAC (Aircraft commander time) can equal PIC.


This is where it is a bit fuzzy- I was told that once I am NATOPS (aircraft specific qualified), I can log all my First Pilot Time as PIC. One does not have to be aircraft commander qualified to log the FPT as PIC time, or so I was told. Is that true?

Maybe I am just dense.

 

[nosehair]

This is where it is a bit fuzzy- I was told that once I am NATOPS (aircraft specific qualified), I can log all my First Pilot Time as PIC. One does not have to be aircraft commander qualified to log the FPT as PIC time, or so I was told. Is that true?

This is true. It follows exactly the wording of the FAA (FAR) 61.51(e)(1)(i) Logging PIC: "Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated."

 

[skiddriver]

Starting to get a bit more understandable. All my HAC (Aircraft commander time) can equal PIC.


This is where it is a bit fuzzy- I was told that once I am NATOPS (aircraft specific qualified), I can log all my First Pilot Time as PIC. One does not have to be aircraft commander qualified to log the FPT as PIC time, or so I was told. Is that true?

Maybe I am just dense.

That depends. If you can sign for the aircraft as a PIC, then you can log FPT as PIC time for the FAA. If your NATOPS has a NATOPS qual required to act as co-pilot, that qualification does not allow you to log FPT as PIC time, because you aren't a signer.

The FAA doesn't care about mission ratings (HAC or AHC). If you are qualified to take an aircraft out as PIC and sign the bottom of the NAVFLR, then you are AC qualed. If you can't take an aircraft out as PIC (i.e. aren't a signer), then you are not AC qualed, and your FPT is not loggable as PIC.

So it's not fuzzy at all. If you could sign for the aircraft, you can log FPT as PIC even if you aren't the AC for the flight. If you couldn't sign for the aircraft, then you can't log it as PIC.

 

[mudkow60]

Gottcha'-

When I fly as the HAC, I can log all that time as PIC. If I fly, not as a HAC (but still had my HAC letter for that helo), then I can use all my FPT as PIC.

Seems kind of a strange way of doing business.

Just checking to see if I am now correct.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Phrogboy]

Skid and Mud,
Not to rain on anyones parade, but one thing that comes to mind with what you bring up is where in the FAR's is most of that written? I believe everything that was just mentioned is true under PT 61 (Certification). This would be usefull when going for your next rating, such as your ATP. But as I understand it, when it comes down to resumes, most companies would probably expect you to go with the PT 1 Definition of PIC.

Pilot in Command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight;
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of flight.

I honestly can not say if this is gospel or not, as I do know that different companies look at resume times differently. But it would be wise to know under which chapter of the FAR's you are using to total your times.

3 months to go Mud? Any leads? Best of luck.