PIC Interpetationfor SWA

[airbus_jas]

Folks:

This is probably something new since SWA just started the online apps. How would you interpert this statement from theie website:

"Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat AND sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC."

This may seem intuitive to some, but it is confusing to me. Should the word "OR" be inserted where the "AND" is?

In other words, what if the pilot in the right seat is also type rated as in the above statement, and he is the sole manipulator of the controls. Does he get to log PIC time under this scenario.

To simplify, in my situation, I have 5500 hours in the 737, with a type rating from the beginning. This is all from the right seat, due to working for a airline doomed from the start. Do you think I can claim ANY PIC time for the time I am the sole manipulator, or is the left seater the only one who can log it?

This is an ambiguous statement, and I'm trying to figure out what they mean. I'm not talking about FAR's here...strickly how SWA wants the time sorted out.

Thanks a million. Sorry for the long post.

Jim

 

[airbus_jas]

I obviously forgot to REVIEW my post before launching it. Hope you can understand it with the spelling errors.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[typhoonpilot]

Sorry Jim, with 3500 hours in the same seat at the same airline as you it is all SIC. PIC is the guy who signs for the aircraft.


Typhoonpilot

 

[Swerpipe]

My interpretation

-Southwest will allow you to log PIC if you are designated as PIC for the flight. You sign for the aircraft etc...no matter where you seat. It means you are ultimately responsible for the flight. Final decision is yours...

-Southwest will FURTHER or ALSO allow you to log PIC if you are type rated AND seating on the left AND sole manipulator of the controls even if you were not designated PIC for the flight.


The answer to your question?: I am afraid not. If you seat on the right even though you are type rated means to them that you were not PIC as defined in part 1 or in any other way.

That's my interpretation. I fly with a co-pilot who is type rated on the Hawker and always seats on the right. He is not supposed to log PIC. He is SIC even when he is the sole manipulator of the controls. Our OPS SPEC only allows the PIC to seat on the left unless you are going through IOE. In that case, even if you are flying with a "check airman" who is PIC (part I)seating on the right you can log PIC being type rated and sole manipulator of the controls and seating on the left. While you are on IOE you also sign for the aircraft.

 

[LearLove]

Wait, now I'm confused. I always thought for SWA apps that PIC is ONLY the guy who signs for the aircraft and NOTHING else.

So what your saying then:

"-Southwest will FURTHER or ALSO allow you to log PIC if you are type rated AND seating on the left AND sole manipulator of the controls even if you were not designated PIC for the flight"

in this statement. In my case (and this goes for an increasing amount of unlucky guys at ALG) I'm downgraded so I have the Dash type and was downgraded after only a few months as capt so i didn't get the 1000 pic turb.

From what you say....... If the Capt (the guy who is designated PIC on the release) lets me (the guy who is designated FO, but typed in the dash, on the release) sit in the left seat and I fly, then by what you say above i can log it as PIC????

my PIC break down right now look like:

about 300 PIC Turbine (all 121)
About 600 PIC Multi Piston (all 135)
900 PIC single engine (as CFI and just general flying)
So total is 1800

Just looking back and applying what you say I could add more hours to the turbine PIC area as like i've said, some capts in the past have let me fly left seat after my downgrade.


I have had several capts that let me fly from the left seat since I've been downgraded. I've always logged it as SIC. If what your saying is true than i need to retotal my PIC and hence Turbine PIC time and may have the mins for SWA.

Please tell me this is true. Then I get to be one more chump in the SWA pile. Had I never been downgraded (thank you mainline guys and J4J) I'd far surpass the Turb PIC mins at SWA by now.

Please clarify for anyone in the know. Thanks

 

[GPilot]

This one has been killing me. I've searched this website and found different interpretations. Does SWA really allow two people to log PIC for the same flight, ie. guy who signed + guy who flew the leg? While I wish it were so, it seems goofy. And then again, why would they put in this stipulation? Please help!

 

[Swerpipe]

read the definition

"Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR.
Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating"

I didn't write the explanation above but it is pretty clear to me: log part I and also if you seat on the left and typed and sole manipulator. I don't know your situation. In my company, the PIC seats on the left and that's it. So it is one and the same guy. Obviously, if you split hairs to meet the time then I am sure you will be heavily scrutinized. In the Part 135 World this could happen on a Part 91 leg but I would really be suspect of someone logging PIC on a 135 leg even if they sat on the left, if they didn't have a Captain letter (135.299 check for instance).

You may want to call SWA to ask about your situation. In the Part 121 World you always fly 121 legs where you are clearly NOT PIC. If you are repositioning for the 121 carrier (like part 91) then I wouldn't see a problem. However, SWA wrote the definition for a reason and it is fairly clear to me. Your airline allow the PIC to seat on the right seat? If so , I think and I'll say it again THINK you are good to go.

 

[airbus_jas]

I'm going to have to change my app...pronto.

If any of you shakers and movers who get up close and personal with the famous "LL' or the famous "PD" ask them to read this statement on thier application site. Maybe you can get the word out for them.

I definitely want to get the eyes dotted and the tees crossed.

Thanks in advance,

Jim

 

[StopNTSing]

Guys, I think you're making this much more complicated than need be. If you're the one with final authority for the operation of the airplane, you're the PIC! If you're not, then you're not!

If you parse the words carefully enough, some of the above scenarios might actually appear to fit...but now imagine trying to explain it to an interviewer.

 

[LearLove]

Guys, I think you're making this much more complicated than need be. If you're the one with final authority for the operation of the airplane, you're the PIC! If you're not, then you're not!

If you parse the words carefully enough, some of the above scenarios might actually appear to fit...but now imagine trying to explain it to an interviewer.

Yeah in your first paragraph, thats what i thought and always did, but now these guys got me screwed up. Guess i'll just leave it be.

 

[herc17]

I too was confused by the extra wording so I called LL. She made it very easy. If you didn't sign for the plane you were not the PIC. That was basically her answer. Hope this helps.

 

[airbus_jas]

Thanks Herk.

Jim

 

[LearLove]

I too was confused by the extra wording so I called LL. She made it very easy. If you didn't sign for the plane you were not the PIC. That was basically her answer. Hope this helps.

Yep, that what I thought all along, stop confusing me people, I do that enough on my own.

 

[flyguppy]

And how about this one. You're sitting in the left seat, with a type rating, while the "Captain" is taking a snooze in the back. PIC? By reading SWA's definition of PIC, it sure fits the bill.

Oh, and I called on this one. Got a call back from an asst. chief pilot in Dallas. His response? "Hell yeah, I'd log it."

Don't think I didn't take down his name and the date this conversation took place, just in case the interviewer asks.

 

[GPilot]

AAAAAARRRRGHHH! Feels like I drank my slushy too quick.

 

[learflyer]

And how about this one. You're sitting in the left seat, with a type rating, while the "Captain" is taking a snooze in the back. PIC? By reading SWA's definition of PIC, it sure fits the bill.

Oh, and I called on this one. Got a call back from an asst. chief pilot in Dallas. His response? "Hell yeah, I'd log it."

Don't think I didn't take down his name and the date this conversation took place, just in case the interviewer asks.

Thanks guppy for checking on that!! I feel a little better now. I am one of the folks at a large Frac who is typed but entering year 4 as an SIC. I added a column in my logbook that states "turbine PIC sole manipulator." Hopefully they'll be ok with it. By the time I get interviewed at SWA, hopefully i'd be upgraded by then anyway and can just log PIC turbine with peace of mind! Until then: Coffee,papers, and Ice anyone?

 

[StopNTSing]

And how about this one. You're sitting in the left seat, with a type rating, while the "Captain" is taking a snooze in the back. PIC? By reading SWA's definition of PIC, it sure fits the bill.

It may fit the "bill," but I really don't believe it fits the intent.

Oh, and I called on this one. Got a call back from an asst. chief pilot in Dallas. His response? "Hell yeah, I'd log it."

Don't think I didn't take down his name and the date this conversation took place, just in case the interviewer asks.

Personally, I wouldn't want to go into an interview at the company I'd love to make a career with, having ANY question about whether I meet their minimums. Best of luck to you.

 

[Dizel8]

So, if I am sitting in the jet, the door is closed, the apu is running, I am in the left seat, with a type, but is really an F/O with the company and we are being towed to the hangar, can I log that as PIC?

Guys, just my humble opinion, but you either got the time or you do not. I am sure there are a million ways to interpret the requirements as to what counts, but really. Minimum time and competetive are two very separate animals.

PIC really comes down to Typed signing for the a/c, or in the absence of a typerating requirement, signing/PIC on the a/c.

Like someone else said, I would hate to get shot down because I used questionable interpretation as to the concept of PIC.

With that said, I hope you all get hired with your chosen carrier.

 

[learflyer]

So, if I am sitting in the jet, the door is closed, the apu is running, I am in the left seat, with a type, but is really an F/O with the company and we are being towed to the hangar, can I log that as PIC?

Guys, just my humble opinion, but you either got the time or you do not. I am sure there are a million ways to interpret the requirements as to what counts, but really. Minimum time and competetive are two very separate animals.

PIC really comes down to Typed signing for the a/c, or in the absence of a typerating requirement, signing/PIC on the a/c.

Like someone else said, I would hate to get shot down because I used questionable interpretation as to the concept of PIC.

With that said, I hope you all get hired with your chosen carrier.

Good post dizel. I just need to take one thing at a time I guess. My time will come as well as everyone elses who wish to fly for them. Like I said earlier, I might as well just stay the course for now and hopefully get the upgrade soon and log some "real" pic time. Thanks!

 

[SWA2000]

For what it's worth. I have asked the Chief Pilots about what is considered PIC and what is not. I was also under the impression when I was hired that the person that "signs for the aircraft" is the PIC. That is only true in 121 and 135 operations where there is a designated "Captain" and "Co-Pilot" Part 91 flying is different. All my flying prior to coming to SW was under 91 where we flew turboprops that did not require type ratings and jets that did require type ratings. If you are rated in the A/C ie: multi-engine, type rating, whatever... you can log the time you are sole-manipulator of the controls. I had a seperate column for my time when I was flying the turbo-prop as a co-pilot as far as pay was concerned. I logged it PIC in my logbook but did not include it as part of the 1000hrs PIC turbine SW requires. During the logbook audit portion of the interview, they added it to my total PIC turbine time and said it was valid time as I was rated in the A/C and sole manipulator. I hope this helps.