PFT or NOT????

[CrewDawg]

Me and a friend of mine are having a dispute of whether or not a what a local freight operation is running is pft or not. What they do is have you pay around 3000 dollars to get trained and checked out in the Caravan. Once your checked out you begin to fly runs for them without any pay. You can keep on flying for free until you get 250 hours or until they can hire you if they do. Thanks for you help.

 

[bobbysamd]

Sure, it is

What they do is have you pay around 3000 dollars to get trained and checked out in the Caravan. Once your checked out you begin to fly runs for them without any pay. You can keep on flying for free until you get 250 hours or until they can hire you if they do.

For something to be P-F-T it has to require that (1) the employee remit money to the employer as a condition of "employment" to defray the expense of your training and (2) the training is company-specific with no certificate, rating or operating privilege that is marketable elsewhere.

In this situation, clearly, you're paying the $3K to the company for the training and the training is only for a glorified checkout and 135 letter in the Caravan. This situation absolutely is P-F-T.

And worse. You're flying for free. I repeat, for free. You're not getting paid. Occasionally ferrying aircraft for no pay for your FBO employer is one thing, but this is real, Part 135 work, and compensable. Jobs really are being taken away from pilots under this scheme. Moreover, based on what you wrote, in my $0.02 opinion, this scheme violates state and federal wage and hour laws, and is therefore illegal. At least with you-know-where in South Florida, P-F-T FOs are paid a nominal wage during their P-F-T stints.

Hope this helps and ends your dispute.

 

[Flying Illini]

At least with you-know-where in South Florida, P-F-T FOs are paid a nominal wage during their P-F-T stints.

I thought they were paid only 8-9 bucks an hour? Is that a normal wage?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T FO wages

I thought they were paid only 8-9 bucks an hour? Is that a normal wage?

The federal minimum wage is $5.15 per hour. There is no state-mandated minimum wage in Florida. I used "nominal" because that's what's being paid. I don't know starting hourly pay at the "real" commuters - others do and hopefully will chime in - but I know it's more than you-know-where pays. Or rebates back to its P-F-T grads, from that point of view.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

pay $3000 to get checked out in a single engine plane?

then fly for free for 250 hours?

then maybe get hired?

this operator has quite a racket going! good for him, I bet he is making a fortune off these retards!

Its the American Dream!

 

[Mogus]

Excuse my ignorance, but what's PFT?

 

[FN FAL]

That company deserves the burnt hot section or two, that they are going to get from their low time PFT'rs.

 

[IP076]

I don't know about that statement or not, my operator hires people right at 135 mins and as far as I know we haven't burnt any hot sections due to 1200 hr pilots flying them...

Anyways, you're absolutely correct, that operator deserves whatever goes his way. Its absolutely retarded to have to pay 3000 dollars and work 250 hours for free! Actually, I'd agree that is probably not even legal. However, this industry does have a way of making its own rules...

You know, where is this place??? What kind of cargo are you flying? Probably not a Fedex/UPS place. Is it checks or what?

BTW, PFT is Pay For Training..... its what people who can't get a job any other way do....

 

[CrewDawg]

Thanks for the responces guys....I think this is a big problem now. A lot of these guys coming right out flight school don't understand about PFT and what it really is. They have no flight time and they see PFT as a way to build it, you know just coming from paying for all their ratings, they think why is this any different. Also from the what has been posted on here about PFT, they don't understand that they may have to explain their actions to every potential interviewer that they may face. OH by the way it's not a Fedex feeder, they just haul some checks and freight.

 

[enigma]

Excuse my ignorance, but what's PFT?

PFT is the practice of BUYING a job. In a employers market, some pilots are willing to pay for a job because they presume that the market will eventually improve. They realize that solidarity is virtually non-existant and that getting a seniority number is job one. It's called, me first.
I've given up on trying to convince potential PFT'rs that they are screwing all of us, they just don't care. I will say this; PFT damages us all by PROVING to management that pilots will accept any level of abuse in exchange for flying airplanes.

You will read many defenders of PFT, but they will all be self-justifying scumbags.

regards,
enigma

 

[Timebuilder]

You will read many defenders of PFT, but they will all be self-justifying scumbags.

Come on now, tell us what you really think!!

 

[GogglesPisano]

If that isn't PFT, what is?

 

[350DRIVER]

You will read many defenders of PFT, but they will all be self-justifying scumbags.

We have a few Gulfstream whores here but most stay in the closest. Nothing like buying your way into a 1900 then on to the RJ. Woo hoo

3 5 0

 

[bart]

I will say this; PFT damages us all by PROVING to management that pilots will accept any level of abuse in exchange for flying airplanes.

This is an absolute fact. Though your wording shows your emotion around the issue, it is correct. The market will always pay what the lowest bidder will accept, up to and including taking compensation to grant work. The problem is for every guy you convince that this is a bad idea, there are two more waiting to take his place.

If I had people wanting to pay me to process loans or do it for free and they were competent, I would take all I could find.

 

[BankAccount=0$]

I've talked to these guys in the past. They used to let guys fly along on empty legs and log the time in the Caravan. They fly up to Toronto to pick up the New York times, (at least they did when I droped by). When I found out about the $3000 to ride right seat I said thanks, but no thanks. MG is a pretty nice guy and all, but I've been working too hard building time instructing and hauling freight in an old rustbucket to sell my soul to the PFT devil. People will always pay to play, and there will always be Gulfstreams, Air Vegas, and all the rest of the PFT's out there. As I was told by a retired UAL Capt., "Kid do what you want with your money, but don't never take a paid flyin job and do it for free." Besides I've been eyeing 350's site of the field, and they've got way better toys than Castle. Good luck, and may we all move up the ladder in 2004............
TJ

 

[bobbysamd]

Anti-PFT education

A lot of these guys coming right out flight school don't understand about PFT and what it really is. They have no flight time and they see PFT as a way to build it, you know just coming from paying for all their ratings, they think why is this any different.

You, as a CFI, can play a major role in dissuading your students from P-F-T. Students tend to look at their instructors as role models and mentors. As their mentor, you can educate them about P-F-T.

You can discuss how P-F-T cheapens, discounts and essentially obviates any hard-earned experience by making the checkbook the sole qualfication for P-F-T "employment." (Face it, folks, ability to pay is the bottom-line of P-F-T hiring. Any minimum quals P-F-T companies set forth are window-dressing. They will take you, despite, or in lieu of, your credentials.) The questionable legalities of P-F-T, including bad-faith, fraud, violation of consumer protection laws, and questionable legality of the flight time. How the pilots sitting on the board during the interview at the airline of your dreams will react to you P-F-Ting. Finally, and not least, the ethics and pride implications of buying a job versus earning it. How it affects your character.

Explain the difference between "school" and "work." Tell your students that P-F-T is not "school" but is "work." A job. Employment, which is to be compensated, with training supplied and not something that one pays for.

Good luck with your efforts.

 

[TriJet]

That's not PFT

THAT'S WORSE THAN PFT !!

Don't do it.