PFT in diguise

[shroomwell]

I started this thread to vent a little.

I think these stupid bridge programs are PFT in disguise. These kids get there parents to part with 50 grand or more so they can go to DCA, or wherever ( I don't know them all). So they can get hired with 500 hours.

Its a crock and the airlines are supporting it. It really annoys me when there are two different sets of hiring standards, one for PFT's and one for the rest of us. Essentially they are telling me and everyone else like me that the PFT's at 500 hours are just as experienced and competent as us with 2000 hours.

B.S. I don't know for a fact but I am 90% sure that the airlines get a kickback from the flight schools for hiring these wonder boys and girls.

I think the unions should not let these PFT's join. Since essentially they are degrading our profession. Hopefully as time moves on there will be enough of us to fight the PFT's. The old timers don't really understand it yet since it is relatively new.

Please respond

 

[VADriver]

How should the unions stop this? Unions don't hire and fire employees. They only protect employees from management. Usually in the form of management makes a mistake or performs poorly and they look to labor to take the burden. Mesaba is a prime example.

But back to your post. The Europeans have been doing ab initio programs for years. One could argue the military is ab initio. Shouldn't F-18 pilots get their expereince some where else? And come to the Navy with 5000 hours of turbine?

It is a legitimate way to recruit and train pilots. One of the upsides is the ab initio pilots can be molded from the start.

As long as you know the programs and you have a fair shot at it just like everyone else..what is the real issue?

Go Mesaba!

 

[secks]

Re: Yep!

It's like the dumb ass kid that gets to go to a "Good College" becuase Daddy either knows someone or has lots of bucks.

It's also like the guy who has his resume walked in, or uses a family connection to get him an aviation job.

 

[FL000]

Yeah, it's all the rich people's fault! Let's kill 'em!

 

[FL000]

Re: Re: Yep!

It's also like the guy who has his resume walked in, or uses a family connection to get him an aviation job.

Uhhhh, that's called networking, my friend.

 

[Tug Driver]

I thought that the bridge program only gets you 1 year of IOE then an interview...

Haven't most SJP's done away with the program, since there is a surplus of pilots?

 

[AutoTransfer]

Originally posted by shroomwell

I think these stupid bridge programs are PFT in disguise.

I attended a bridge program, or ab initio school. I did pay for my ratings (just like everyone else does), and I also paid for instruction (flight and classroom) that would give me the tools needed to succeed during new hire training at an airline. I did not pay anything to the airline that hired me or to any other party for and during my initial new hire training (or afterwards for that matter). If what I described above is considered pay for training (in disguise or otherwise) then so be it. I guess a candidate who pays for a type rating because it is required by the airline they wish to be hired at would be called PFT given your line of reasoning. I do not agree that this is the case.

These kids get there parents to part with 50 grand or more so they can go to DCA, or wherever (I don't know them all). So they can get hired with 500 hours.

I agree that there are individuals who are fortunate enough to do as you describe above, but in my experience they are a small minority. At the school that I attended, fully 80% or more of the students were accomplished professionals in an early to mid life career change. They either financed the school with their earnings or their good credit.

Essentially they are telling me and everyone else like me that the PFT's at 500 hours are just as experienced and competent as us with 2000 hours.

I disagree. To quote a mentor of mine: "Experience is a hard teacher, but it's the only one that works." There is absolutely no substitute for experience. I have neither Instructed nor flown 135 Freight, but I have nothing but the utmost respect for those that did or still do. Competency, however, is a whole 'nother ball game. Competency is based on skill and knowledge, and I would dare say that it is a very individual attribute. There are ab initio students that are more competent than some pilots will be at 5000 hours. Experienced: No. Competent: Yes.

That being said...time to throw back a cool one.

Happy New Year Everyone,

AT

 

[c5driver]

Not even close

One could argue the military is ab initio.

No amount of money will BUY you a spot in a military aviation training program.

 

[Russ]

C5 driver
But fame and family connections can get you in the ANG.

Before you say anything, I am former mil enlisted, a God fearing Republican, NRA member and still voting for Dubya.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

For what its worth, I have flown with a lot of people with a wide variety of backgrounds from one end of the spectrum to the other. 99.9% of those folks have been skilled, technically proficient, solid professionals.

The very few that I have come across who do not fit that description had anywhere from 3K-10K hours and lack of experience was not at all the issue. Rather it was either a total lack of situational awareness (which I would submit one either has or has not from jumpstreet) or a bad attitude.

These kids(young and old alike) who are participating in these programs have some advantages that others may not have been able to avail themselves of. Get over it and get used to the fact that life is not fair!

A positive attitude counts for a lot in this business. Letting our bitterness about how someone has opportunities that we didn't have or that someone's 152 time counts more than our H-60 time at certain carriers is counterproductive and can lead to the kind of attitude that makes us a liability rather than an asset at the business end of whatever it is we find ourselves operating.

Don't be that guy!

AMF

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

XRMEFLYER,
-- very well said!

 

[BoilerUP]

Essentially they are telling me and everyone else like me that the PFT's at 500 hours are just as experienced and competent as us with 2000 hours.

Someone with 500 hours will never be experienced as someone with 2000 hours, if you are just looking at digits in a logbook. However, depending on the type and quality of training, a "500 hour wonder" can be just as experienced AND competent, if not more so, as a 2000 hr pilot when it comes to transport category operations. I'm sure there are plenty of college aviation program and professional flight school grads who can't fly to save their lives - there certainly are some in my class. However, I've met 1500+ hour CFIs that can't fly to save their lives either.

Here at Purdue, I have taken out a large chunk of change in loans to attend (what I think is) the best aviation program in the nation. I will graduate with in-depth knowledge of the B727, over 100 hours of 727 level B and C time, King Air experience, and possibly a BE40 61.55 endorsement. And for my hard work and high tuition, Purdue has preferred hiring minimums with Chautauqua. I don't think that is unfair; I think it is very loud testimony to the overall historic quality of Purdue AvTech students. The same can be said for any major university aviation program that has a flow-through agreement, such as UND-Horizon or ERAU-ACA. Does that mean graduates of such programs are better pilots than non-gradutes? HELL NO! It just means they have had more specialized training, and the benefit of such training is understood by the airlines.

You should be more upset if someone got a job only because they or their family were buddy-buddy with the CEO or Cheif Pilot(regardless of flight experience), than if somebody got hired through a highly structured bridge program.

I think the unions should not let these PFT's join. Since essentially they are degrading our profession. Hopefully as time moves on there will be enough of us to fight the PFT's. The old timers don't really understand it yet since it is relatively new.

This statement is such BS, I shouldn't even justify it with a response. However, for a union such as ALPA to exclude pilots who have PFT'd will remove pilots from nearly every airline, including many pilots from such places as CMR, CHQ, and XJET. Is SWA requiring a 737 type PFT? Is Mesa's MAPD program PFT? Is Delta Connection (Comair) academy PFT? Where do you make the distinction?

Personally, I think its mighty arrogant for somebody to think they are a vastly superior pilot just because they have more hours than somebody else. It is my opinion that the regional airlines should be emphasizing quality of instruction and flight experience, and not so much quanity. Sure, you might have 2000 hours with 500 multi, and I might have 500/50. But if I know systems better than you, fly the sim better than you, get a better grade on the written test and have a better interview than you, shouldn't I get the job and not you?

All that being said, I look forward to earning my dues by CFI'ing (which I enjoy) and hauling checks and freight for a company like Airnet. I have no grand expectations of graduating on a Saturday and starting Indoc on Monday. However, if my training and Purdue background opens doors earlier for me, then I will take maximum advantage of those opportunities. I don't owe you, or anyone else, an explanation or apology.

Maybe I'll see you on the line one day. Good luck on your career, and I sincerely hope you have a better attitude in the cockpit towards your fellow aviators.

 

[c5driver]

Before you say anything, I am former mil enlisted, a God fearing Republican, NRA member and still voting for Dubya.

Nice

You are right about the ANG and the same could be said for the Reserves. However, their are checks and balances. So that even if I want to hire my nephew, he still needs to be quilified.

 

[secks]

Re: Re: Re: Yep!

Uhhhh, that's called networking, my friend.

Yeah, well that sort of "networking" displaces more qualified pilots, among other things. It's just a way of getting something you don't really deserve on the basis of merit. In a lot of ways, it reminds me of affirmative action.

 

[T-Gates]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Yep!

Yeah, well that sort of "networking" displaces more qualified pilots, among other things. It's just a way of getting something you don't really deserve on the basis of merit. In a lot of ways, it reminds me of affirmative action.

Sounds like your bitter......

Some companies discourage nepotisim. My father has been with management at UPS for almost 20 years, but they have a strict anti-nepotisim policy. I cannot work for UPS until he retires. You don't hear me bitching.....

 

[Russ]

C5 Driver
Agreed...

 

[secks]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yep!

Sounds like your bitter......

Some companies discourage nepotisim. My father has been with management at UPS for almost 20 years, but they have a strict anti-nepotisim policy. I cannot work for UPS until he retires. You don't hear me bitching.....

So, you want to get personal? Sounds like "you're" uneducated.

That aside, what is the point of your argument? "You don't hear me bitching " Hmm, so you're not complaining about the anti-nepotism policy (good). Something tells me that this isn't what you wanted to argue.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

Practice makes perfect. Practicing the wrong thing reinforces whats wrong. 5000 hrs TT of operation w/o SOP and structure makes nothing but a pilot who doesnt know nor willing to reconlize his place in a team. It doesnt matter what program from which you graduated. I am not saying you are one of those, but I have flown with many of those who do not seem to understand teamwork, CRM, SOP, and the freaking stablize app concept, and its not becasue their lack of experience.

 

[secks]

These kids(young and old alike) who are participating in these programs have some advantages that others may not have been able to avail themselves of. Get over it and get used to the fact that life is not fair!

For the mostpart, I agree. However, some of these "advantages" lead to an unsafe environment for paying passengers. I think we can agree that these situations endanger the flying public: 1) An airline pilot who isn't far from poverty 2) An airline pilot who is minimally qualified to fly the airframe. Unfortunately, many of these bridge, pay for interview, PFT, whatever programs result in 1) and/or 2). This is why I presonally oppose them.

Then you've got the issue of the pilot market. Thousands of posts have been made which explain the effects of these bridge/PFT/etc programs on the pilot market. The common consensus among anti-PFTers is that 1) they depress pilot wages 2) they displace more qualified pilots.

Thus, you've got between two and four reasons to oppose these programs, depending on whether your just a paying passenger or a pilot in the job market.

 

[chrisdahut2]

For the mostpart, I agree. However, some of these "advantages" lead to an unsafe environment for paying passengers. I think we can agree that these situations endanger the flying public: 1) An airline pilot who isn't far from poverty 2) An airline pilot who is minimally qualified to fly the airframe. Unfortunately, many of these bridge, pay for interview, PFT, whatever programs result in 1) and/or 2). This is why I presonally oppose them.

Then you've got the issue of the pilot market. Thousands of posts have been made which explain the effects of these bridge/PFT/etc programs on the pilot market. The common consensus among anti-PFTers is that 1) they depress pilot wages 2) they displace more qualified pilots.

Thus, you've got between two and four reasons to oppose these programs, depending on whether your just a paying passenger or a pilot in the job market.

And what level of hours would be considered as well qualified to fly an airframe? British Airways seems to think it's somewhere around 250 TT to sit right seat in a 737. The same applies to many other foreign carriers.

Funny how some people have short memories. 3 years ago, 1000 TT and 100 ME was the hiring minimums at the regionals, and they hired plenty at those minimums. These days certain pilots would argue that those with 1000 hours are a danger when put into the right seat of anything bigger then a 402. I guess the CRJ must have gotten that much more difficult to handle in the last few years

 

[taloft]

Re: Re: PFT in diguise

Sure, you might have 2000 hours with 500 multi, and I might have 500/50. But if I know systems better than you, fly the sim better than you, get a better grade on the written test and have a better interview than you, shouldn't I get the job and not you?

Boiler, no argument with your statement. Absolutely true. However, it contains one flaw. You will get the interview where the 2000/500 hour guy may not, because he did not graduate from your approved program. Heck, he may even be teaching your approved program or one like it.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Re: Not even close

No amount of money will BUY you a spot in a military aviation training program.

Perhaps not a direct over the table purchase but, coming from a well connected family certainly helps.

 

[starchkr]

Maybe we should all have 10000TT w/ 9000 multi turbine before we can get hired on at any airline job. Maybe that would make the above complainers about low time pilots being inexperienced feel better.

 

[DTWFO]

By the way, Delta Connection Academy (DCA) is not pay-for-training any more than your local FBO flight school and you finish there with 1200TT and 200multi. You aren't guarenteed anything and you have to interview and get hired like everyone else. Get your facts straight before you spout off about PFT.

 

[BoilerUP]

Re: Re: Re: PFT in diguise

Boiler, no argument with your statement, but it contains one flaw. You will get the interview where the 2000/500 hour guy will not, because he did not graduate from your approved program. Heck, he may even be teaching your approved program or one like it. I'm living proof.

Point very well taken. I think that instructors in the aforementioned programs should have the same opportunities as the graduates, as they are in fact teaching those graduates most of what they know.

We all have made the choices we thought would work out best for us in the end, and we are stuck with the consequences of those actions. How it will work out for any of us, in this industry, amounts to a crapshoot at best. I'd like to think the sandbox is big enough for all of us.

 

[secks]

And what level of hours would be considered as well qualified to fly an airframe? British Airways seems to think it's somewhere around 250 TT to sit right seat in a 737. The same applies to many other foreign carriers.

Funny how some people have short memories. 3 years ago, 1000 TT and 100 ME was the hiring minimums at the regionals, and they hired plenty at those minimums. These days certain pilots would argue that those with 1000 hours are a danger when put into the right seat of anything bigger then a 402. I guess the CRJ must have gotten that much more difficult to handle in the last few years

Perhaps you're right about the hours. Maybe a pilot with 250 TT does posess sufficient experience and skill to safely operate as a copilot. I won't speculate, since I'm not involved in aviation. However, there are plenty of pilots on these boards who feel that 250 TT is not sufficient. That aside, I wouldn't bank on the safety of 250 TT 747 copilots simply because it's a common practice in Australia or Europe.

If you really feel that 250 TT airline copilots are sufficient, then it stands to reason that you also believe that low-time pilots do not pose a safety threat. If this is the case, then there isn't much of a point to paying pilots/copilots high wages. It stands to reason that poorly paid pilots may perform their jobs unsatisfactorily, due to poor pay, hours, stress, etc. Would you want a surgeon operating on you while earning $30k a year? Probably not.

 

[Tug Driver]

do you really have 2000 hours? or do you have 1 hour 2000 times??

makes me ponder...

 

[BoilerUP]

I won't speculate, since I'm not involved in aviation.

Thank you for the disclaimer. I don't see what dog you would have in this fight, considering you aren't involved in aviation, other than possibly trying to ruffle a few feathers.

Please keep the pilot-wage and pilot/doctor flamebait to yourself; it has no bearing on this topic.

 

[secks]

Thank you for the disclaimer. I don't see what dog you would have in this fight, considering you aren't involved in aviation, other than possibly trying to ruffle a few feathers.

Please keep the pilot-wage and pilot/doctor flamebait to yourself; it has no bearing on this topic.

If anyone here is baiting, it's you by taking my statements out of context. That disclaimer only applies to my assesment of the skills of a 250 TT pilot.

Are you actually trying to claim that since I'm not professionally involved in aviation, I have no say in this argument? Do I not meet your standards for debate? Instead of attacking me personally, how about you debate my points? Perhaps you can't.

The fact that you consider my comments regarding pilot wage as flamebait indicates that you either didn't read my post or were aggravated to such an extent that you refuse to debate. Instead, you cry "flamebait" and leave it at that. Did you even realize that my comments were directed at a particular poster's statement regarding 250 TT pilots?

 

[secks]

BoilerUP:

Let me be clear. The reason for broaching the subject of pilot wages and safety is to argue that by accepting the advent of the 250 TT airline copilot, pilots implicitly accept low wages and likely endanger the flying public.