PF freezes on takeoff roll....

[westwind driver]

Quick question for you folks,

A while back I was flying a contract trip on a westwind. After descending through some weather which the radar wasn't painting, and landing at destination, we were soon back out on the runway pushing the throttles up.

The weather we flew through was pretty moderate to heavy. We came down out of IMC thru about FL200 and when we broke out 2 miles in front of us were 2 cumulonimbus buildups, with maybe 1/2 mile between them. We had no option but to go between them, verses flying through one or the other. The ride was somewhat violent even though we had alread slowed down to around 220 kias cause it was bumpy in IMC. In total is lasted about 4-5 seconds and we broke out on the other side into CAVU.

Now, it shook me up a bit, and I know it shook the captain up a bit too, but here's where this comes into play.

Like I said, we landed, dropped off a passenger and 5 minutes later we were taking off. We were on the ground a total of 10 minutes. During the takeoff roll, I made the normal calls, but at "90 knots" the PF did not transition from the tiller to the yoke. I called out "I still have the yoke" with no response. I looked over at the captain and he just seemed to have the thousand yard stare down the runway and was not responding to me. V1 came and went with my call, and about 3 seconds after "ROTATE!" he seemed to come back to himself somewhat dazed, but he rotated and started flying.

It made me feel extremely uncomfortable and unsafe. I could tell something wasn't quite right with him during the rest of the flight, which made me feel even more uncomfortable as our next destination was being approached by level 5 TSRA with 2 inch hail and 50 knot gusts tops up to FL470.

How would some of you reacted if this happened to you? Would you have called for an abort prior to V1 if you realized the PF and or Captain was seemingly off in La-La land, or would you have continued the takeoff yourself and assumed control of the aircraft until the other guy returned from his 'flash back?'

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Im speechless..

anyone?....

All I can think is that the Captain was trying to commit suicide.

I would have.

 

[CarjCapt]

Since the PF didn't respond to your 90 KIAS call, you abort. If above 90KIAS to V1 and no response you continue. That should be the protocall for the unresponsive PF along with positive transfer of controls (for the cockpit voice recorder).

Then with assertiveness with respect you confront his behavior to make a decision to return or continue.

 

[h25b]

I'll go along with the suicide theory...

 

[Flywrite]

Was this not addressed at FSI when you were 11??

 

[Milmil]

Quick question for you folks,

A while back I was flying a contract trip on a westwind. After descending through some weather which the radar wasn't painting, and landing at destination, we were soon back out on the runway pushing the throttles up.

The weather we flew through was pretty moderate to heavy. We came down out of IMC thru about FL200 and when we broke out 2 miles in front of us were 2 cumulonimbus buildups, with maybe 1/2 mile between them. We had no option but to go between them, verses flying through one or the other. The ride was somewhat violent even though we had alread slowed down to around 220 kias cause it was bumpy in IMC. In total is lasted about 4-5 seconds and we broke out on the other side into CAVU.

Now, it shook me up a bit, and I know it shook the captain up a bit too, but here's where this comes into play.

Like I said, we landed, dropped off a passenger and 5 minutes later we were taking off. We were on the ground a total of 10 minutes. During the takeoff roll, I made the normal calls, but at "90 knots" the PF did not transition from the tiller to the yoke. I called out "I still have the yoke" with no response. I looked over at the captain and he just seemed to have the thousand yard stare down the runway and was not responding to me. V1 came and went with my call, and about 3 seconds after "ROTATE!" he seemed to come back to himself somewhat dazed, but he rotated and started flying.

It made me feel extremely uncomfortable and unsafe. I could tell something wasn't quite right with him during the rest of the flight, which made me feel even more uncomfortable as our next destination was being approached by level 5 TSRA with 2 inch hail and 50 knot gusts tops up to FL470.

How would some of you reacted if this happened to you? Would you have called for an abort prior to V1 if you realized the PF and or Captain was seemingly off in La-La land, or would you have continued the takeoff yourself and assumed control of the aircraft until the other guy returned from his 'flash back?'

Pilot incapacitation is a very serious event. Mainly because it is insiduous. Anytime a required call out isn't made/acknowledged always follow it up by another query. You could have called out 100 knts to see if he finally acknowledges your call. If not another query " Are you okay? Do you have the aircraft / yoke? etc... No reponse .... the next thing out of your lips should be " I've got the a/c."

As far as aborting that is a very serious, dangerous manever; even at 90 Knts.
If the captain has just flashed on the ugly conversation he had with his significant other or is bashing himself for allowing the a/c to get into the situation you described coming inbound but he's not more than temporarily
out of the loop I don't know if I would abort. But, so many things factor into it. How big is he? If he slumps over into the yoke am I strong enough to overpower him. Runway length. Aborting is a judgement call but do not ever take an abort lightly. Studies have shown in most cases aborting is a mistake unless you are truly worried about the airworthiness of the aircraft.

Of course this advice is from an airline pilot so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[westwind driver]

Was this not addressed at FSI when you were 11??

YA YA.

Actually, it was. I experienced a incapacitated PF... Captain went 'limp' at the V1 call.. Didn't do this at simuflite...

In the sim it's a little different than real world. Like I said before, being the young guy I don't want to call and abort and then get my ass chewed out. We had passengers and the way I saw it was that the aircraft was performing as expected, but it was the breakdown in communication and CRM that I was not expecting.

 

[CarjCapt]

I'd rather take the tongue lashing after a 90KIAS abort than attempt flying right after takeoff with incapacitated PF anyday.

If I were the PF and my CRM skills were up to standard I would be thankful.

Remember: Life is too short and death too long

 

[westwind driver]

Pilot incapacitation is a very serious event. Mainly because it is insiduous. Anytime a required call out isn't made/acknowledged always follow it up by another query. You could have called out 100 knts to see if he finally acknowledges your call. If not another query " Are you okay? Do you have the aircraft / yoke? etc... No reponse .... the next thing out of your lips should be " I've got the a/c."

As far as aborting that is a very serious, dangerous manever; even at 90 Knts.
If the captain has just flashed on the ugly conversation he had with his significant other or is bashing himself for allowing the a/c to get into the situation you described coming inbound but he's not more than temporarily
out of the loop I don't know if I would abort. But, so many things factor into it. How big is he? If he slumps over into the yoke am I strong enough to overpower him. Runway length. Aborting is a judgement call but do not ever take an abort lightly. Studies have shown in most cases aborting is a mistake unless you are truly worried about the airworthiness of the aircraft.

Of course this advice is from an airline pilot so take it with a grain of salt.

milmil,

lots of good things there to think about. one of my concerns as well is the forth comming basing if I initiate an abort. Since I've come up through the CRM school of thought, and being the junior pilot, I'm not sure how to handle things such as this, or how to be assertive towards a senior pilot.

When I was younger, and attended FSI, I did have the chance to experience a pilot incapacitation and V1. Of course the captain just went limp and leaned back to his left, allowing full range movement of the yoke, so I flew the a/c.

I'll keep your thoughts and advise close in mind. I think I will include this type of thing in my mental predeparture brief.

As far as it comming from an airline captain, I'll listen to advise from those more experienced. Believe it or not, I can still learn from an airline pilot or two.

I was a harsh with my statements in regards to your job search post, and I apologise. I forgot to look at you as a fellow aviator, and concerned myself more with my future well-being. Selfish I know.

I know some people up in PHL, I'll ask them to keep their ears open and I'll post here if they hear of anything.

Thanks!

 

[h25b]

"In the sim it's a little different than real world. Like I said before, being the young guy I don't want to call and abort and then get my ass chewed out. We had passengers and the way I saw it was that the aircraft was performing as expected, but it was the breakdown in communication and CRM that I was not expecting."


First of all, I could list plenty of FATAL accidents where the breakdown of communication and CRM were at least contributing factors. Second of all, the fact you had passengers on board shouldn't factor in to your decision making process. And third, and maybe most importantly, the reason you are given that scenerio in the sim is because IT IS NOT different than the real world!!!

Not saying what you did was incorrect, just pointing out some serious flaws in your thought process. You need to sit down with the other guy and have a serious discussion about your expectations of each other while in the cockpit and what your responses should or should not be...

By the way... Milmil's response to this post seems to be from the standpoint of a willing ignorance of your previous ranting on another thread. By this I mean he is showing that he has true class. Remember AND learn from it...

 

[Milmil]

milmil,

lots of good things there to think about. one of my concerns as well is the forth comming basing if I initiate an abort. Since I've come up through the CRM school of thought, and being the junior pilot, I'm not sure how to handle things such as this, or how to be assertive towards a senior pilot.

When I was younger, and attended FSI, I did have the chance to experience a pilot incapacitation and V1. Of course the captain just went limp and leaned back to his left, allowing full range movement of the yoke, so I flew the a/c.

I'll keep your thoughts and advise close in mind. I think I will include this type of thing in my mental predeparture brief.

As far as it comming from an airline captain, I'll listen to advise from those more experienced. Believe it or not, I can still learn from an airline pilot or two.

I was a harsh with my statements in regards to your job search post, and I apologise. I forgot to look at you as a fellow aviator, and concerned myself more with my future well-being. Selfish I know.

I know some people up in PHL, I'll ask them to keep their ears open and I'll post here if they hear of anything.

Thanks!

No hard feelings. Thanks

 

[Peanut gallery]

How was it briefed

An abort for suspected incapacitation is not where I would go. Unless the PF turns into some kind of floppy doll that is clearly in trouble, and could turn into a control blocker.

Take off briefing, "if anything happens below 80 knots we will abort. Above 80 knots we will abort for engine failure, fire, or any condition that we feel compromises the aircraft's ability to fly. After V1 we will contnue".

Breakdown in communications sometimes happen, communication is a subset of what we call CRM. Sometimes the breakdown is a two way street. Maybe we have not been heard. We need to communicate our concerns at an elevated level if no response is seen/ heard. I think I would have made a repeat of the call quite a bit louder and with some degree of authority. This may have drawn the PF back into the program. Incapacitation follows a two interrrogation rule at my workplace, then you should start assuming control. Changing the profile to something not previosly briefed for what could be a PF that simply has JT-8 syndrome is really not my personal preference.


Just my .02

 

[Andy Neill]

westwind,

Did you talk to him about it after the event? Whether an abort, assumption of controls, or doing what you did, I think that would be pretty high on my list of things to do.

 

[airbaker]

Im speechless..

anyone?....

All I can think is that the Captain was trying to commit suicide.

I would have.

Oh my God, I haven't laughed that hard in a long, long time!!!

good one!

 

[Daveman]

Was this not addressed at FSI when you were 11??

hahaha, I've read that post.
And to Milmil, you sir are a gentleman!

 

[westwind driver]

We brief every takeoff the the T per our operations manual, and it goes like this; "We'll abort for anything below 90 kias. 90 kias up to but not including V1 we'll abort for engine fire, failure, loss of directional control, cabin and cockpit fire or smoke. At and above V1 we'll continue the takeoff, treat it as an inflight emergency and go from there."

We have never addressed an incapacitation. Think I'll bring this up at our next department meeting.

BTW, this event happened while flying contract, not on the westwind i fly full time.

An abort for suspected incapacitation is not where I would go. Unless the PF turns into some kind of floppy doll that is clearly in trouble, and could turn into a control blocker.

Take off briefing, "if anything happens below 80 knots we will abort. Above 80 knots we will abort for engine failure, fire, or any condition that we feel compromises the aircraft's ability to fly. After V1 we will contnue".

Breakdown in communications sometimes happen, communication is a subset of what we call CRM. Sometimes the breakdown is a two way street. Maybe we have not been heard. We need to communicate our concerns at an elevated level if no response is seen/ heard. I think I would have made a repeat of the call quite a bit louder and with some degree of authority. This may have drawn the PF back into the program. Incapacitation follows a two interrrogation rule at my workplace, then you should start assuming control. Changing the profile to something not previosly briefed for what could be a PF that simply has JT-8 syndrome is really not my personal preference.


Just my .02

 

[westwind driver]

westwind,

Did you talk to him about it after the event? Whether an abort, assumption of controls, or doing what you did, I think that would be pretty high on my list of things to do.

When we got to destination I asked him if he was okay and what happened to him. He said "what do ya mean?"

I asked about his freezing up and he acted as if it never happened... ???
I haven't flown with or talked to him since.. hasn't called me for fill in work