Personal Bankruptcy

[bart]

Doing everything possible to keep agreements says a lot about character.

You are making excuses in this statement. You either take responsibility or you don't.

There is no such thing as try.

You either do it or you don't. Trying is what losers do while losing so they can make statements about their effort and avoid responsibility for their results.

Hey, no big deal, you told a bunch of people you would pay them back and when it became inconvenient to do so, you hosed them.

At least you tried, right?

 

[starchkr]

I have no idea what it is like to declare, but i do have an opinion on the "worth of a man" when he, or she, declares bancruptcy.

Lets take this away from aviation for a moment...

About a year and a half ago a small company laid off 90+% of its employees. Now mind you lots of them were making $100,000 plus a year and were fully capable of paying all their bills and making ends meet without thinking about it. Now company X goes under and leaves our employees without anything, no 401k, no compensation for termination, nothing. Now these 100k people can only find 40k jobs in the now flooded market for their skills along with the other 5,000 thousand employees with the same skills looking for the same jobs. What do we say about those people who now can no longer afford their bills because they took a 60% cut in pay? Now they file BK and the sad fact is, it really had nothing to do with their character at all...but a small company called ENRON.

So i must side with the folks who believe that it is NOT always a show of ones character when they file BK.

Now mind you, i do believe it is a show of ones character when they get themselves into so much debt when they know they cannot pay for it all and then they file for the BK. It is all on a one by one basis, and you CANNOT generalize everyone into the same "lack of character" category.

Again, just my .02

 

[pipejockey]

You are making excuses in this statement. You either take responsibility or you don't.

There is no such thing as try.

You either do it or you don't. Trying is what losers do while losing so they can make statements about their effort and avoid responsibility for their results.

Hey, no big deal, you told a bunch of people you would pay them back and when it became inconvenient to do so, you hosed them.

At least you tried, right?

As has been said earlier, it is wrong to generalize everyones situation like this. There are different factors involved with each case. The people who go out and buy new cars every couple years and a home that is right at their limit, can be considered irresponsible and I have little sympathy for people like that.

I truly feel my case is different. Currently I have a FICO score of 760, which I believe is in the higest grouping. I have handled my debt quite responsibly. I don't even have any credit card debt, because I pay that off in full each month. My problem has arisen from educational debt.

If I am guilty of anything, it was of pursuing a dream, not of being irresponsible. In the year 2000, I had 2 choices. Use the tried and true method of reaching the flight deck, or go the more expensive flight school route, with gauranteed interviews with regional carriers. Considering the info I had at the time of making my decision, I chose the flight school route. Remember, in 2000 all industry news was good, and that is what I based my decision on. Well I graduated DAYS before 9-11. Well that was it. The school could not place the low-time pilots anymore. A year later the school talks me into their NEW program that will gaurantee me an interview with a regional that was hiring at the time. I took the chance that a worst case scenario would not happen twice to me, so I went for it! I figured I had spent so much money already, it would be foolish not to give it a try, to do otherwise would be a waste of the money I had already spent initially.

So while I'm in this NEW program, the school slams its doors shut and yet another worst case scenario occurs. The school mismanages their finances and all they have to do is declare bankruptcy on their company and they get away scott free. Their personal finances will be completely protected and they can immediately start their pathetic lives again, which they have already done. The poor students that gave everything they had and then some, are facing having their lives stigmatized by a bankruptcy and being accused of not taking resposibility for themselves...sad I say.

Whats also sad is that unlike a house or car, which you can sell and use the proceeds to help pay off your debt, education is an intangible that carries no monetary value. I purchased an education that was to land me a job that would allow me to pay off the debt. I know, I know, you're not going to be able to pay off much debt as an FO at a regional, but the upgrades times were running at 2 years or so at many regionals and less at some, and Captains pay is sufficient at most regionals and would have allowed me to get out of my debt with ease.

I just wanted to describe my situation, because some seem to think that they could never have financial problems. Worst case scenarios DO happen to people, and in my case it happened 2x.

I appreciate the comments, and welcome more.

 

[pipejockey]

Oh, and I wanted to provide this link for you to read. I saved it a while back, I don't know why, I guess to torture myself about the way things were. It is an article written about 2 weeks before 9-11.....who would of thought

http://www.cnn.com/2001/BUSINESS/08/24/airlines.layoffs/

 

[bart]

We will just agree that we have two totally different perspectives.

I tend to believe that everything that happens in my life is the result of my choice. When bad things happen, I trace to the root decision and learn from it. Some lessons have been quite expensive, costing $100s of thousands of dollars. I chose to take responsibility and make good on my commitments. I could be driving a Ferrari and still own a nice airplane instead, but I didn't make that choice.

Yeah, the stock market was bad and I was unemployed for a time. Noone was hiring, so I figured out how to make money where I and I alone was responsible for my income. I worked my way out of the situation. I could have easily said there is no way to do it and given up and hosed the people that counted on me.

I figured that would have made me no better than the people I was dealing with to get in the trouble to begin with. So I made a different choice than they did and made good on my commitments. I do not expect the same of you, though I think you are kidding yourself to proclaim yourself a victim of circumstance.

You made some poor choices, you leveraged yourself to go for something that has a history of serious cyclical results and you can choose to deal with the results or stick to those that trusted you with their money. Your choice.

Investors take a risk when they invest, so they expect losses. You can use that to rationalize it or a million other things.

In the end it is your choice on how to deal with it. I firmly believe that your choices lead you to the situation you find yourself in. At the end of the day, it will be your choice in how to deal with it. You will have to live with it and not me.

 

[pipejockey]

I firmly believe that your choices lead you to the situation you find yourself in.

Well this we agree on. My choice of pursuing my dream is what brought me to this circumstance. You say you owned your own plane? Well Bart, I am nowhere near the situation you were in. If you could afford a plane you must have been doing quite well for yourself and luckily had some assets to help you out perhaps.

If I could sell my vehicle and downgrade to a lesser I would. If I could sell a home and buy a lesser home, I would. But I'm at the bottom now.

I just noticed your position is VP of finance? I dont know if that is a joke or if its real. But if you are in fact VP of finance somewhere you must have a good education and used that education to pull yourself out of your former problems. My education has no value outside of the cockpit. And the sad thing is, I can no longer afford to put myself through a traditional education such as accounting for instance. I'm stuck with menial low paying work that will BARELY pay my monthly loan debt and take the the whole term of the loan to pay off, which is 20 years or more. By that time the best days of my life will have been over.

 

[learflyer]

Bart, I'm glad you have the world figured out. I wish you the best that you never suffer any hardships.

 

[FalconPilot69]

pipejockey

Remember, thanks to the lawyers, you cannot discharge your student loans in a bankruptcy. As far as what to do, it is ultimately your choice.

My wife and I were living comfortably at $80K/yr prior to 9/11 and were on pace to be debt free by the beginning of 2003. We both lost our jobs right after. My job personally went away on 9/17. After depleting our savings trying to "do the right thing", in the end, the creditors could care less what you are trying to do. After fighting for a little over a year we were forced to file. When they start to threaten with law suits, even though you have continued to talk to them and attempt to get relief, they really give you know choice. Do I feel that I am a lesser person than the next person, heck no. Do I wish that the circumstances were different and I was able to pay my debt, you bet.

It is a tough choice no matter which way you go, but like others have said, your credit is messed up for 10 years, but you will be able to rebuild it.

I wish you luck.

 

[avoidingmyboss]

Pipejockey,

I try not to throw stones in glass houses so I won’t. I am not going to tell you that you made a mistake. At the time it sounded like reasonable good plan. I can honestly say that this is as good in aviation as it gets for me. I’m not furloughed and I make descent money. I am in debt, if I lost my job tomorrow I would consider chapter 11. That debt got me my job today. There was a special on TV a few years ago that featured an American pilot who was retiring. He said he had at one time in his career he had to get food stamps. He had nothing, no wife no house no car etc.

I don’t know anyone if they lost their job tomorrow would be ok in 6 months. A few years ago I made $18,000/year. Life sucked and I tried to pay all my bills on time but did not. It came down to roof over my head with no heat or heat with no roof. My present employer has no problem with this issue. I pay all my bills on time now and have a nice house. I think if aviation is what you want in life than pursue it and take any job you can get, it shows integrity. Try and figure out a way to pay the money back. I’m not an attorney and don’t play one on TV but chap. 11 means no cash to the people you owe. Most banks want their cash and are willing to work with you and take some instead of none.

If a future employer asks you about your finances you have to explain yourself. If they treat you like an a-hole then you don’t want to work for them any way. I think a lot of people are in your boat now and if there not they may be someday. Good luck

 

[pipejockey]

Thanks for the comments.

I need to add though, its the government student loans that may not be able to be discharged. As far as private loans, they are dischargeable so I'm in the clear on that.