PBS QOL survey

[BoilerUP]

I'm trying to get some pilot-to-pilot feedback on Preferential Bidding.

I know RAH & SKW use it on the regional level, and Jetblue & UAL on the Major/LCC level (CAL as well?)...anybody else? If your airline uses PBS, what kind of system is it (NavTech, EOS, etc)?

I'm less interested in the pros vs. cons of PBS or how PBS works, and much more interested in first-hand knowledge of how PBS has helped or hurt *your* QOL & bidding power. What do and don't you like about PBS? What would you change about your PBS system if you could?

Many thanks to everyone who replies!

 

[pkober]

We had PBS at TWA (Adopt, I think) and it was awesome. I was middle level senority and got almost everything I wanted. Under the old system, I would get almost nothing.

At CAL we just started PBS (October bid month). This program isn't as user friendly as what I'm used too. We had alot of growning pains, but in the end it will work out. Mostly because people didn't practice enough with the system before it went live.

I think it will help with QOL. The key is practicing with it and figuring out how to program what you want. It's 2006 and the time for dumping the bidding system from 1965 has come. Not a minute to soon.

 

[DornierPilot]

PBS Downsides

I think you have to weigh the benifits of PBS for the months you are working throughtout the year vs. the negatives of no more conflicts with Vacation and training, etc.

Re: Vacation, with PBS, you can either make money or get time off - It's hard to maximize both.

In United's case, the junior pilots are having a hard time getting what they want. If they don't want to be awarded a 90 hour line, by the time the computer gets to their seniority, it ignores requests for lower credit lines and just starts packing in the trips, until they're all covered.

I will say, if you don't mind losing the benefits of conflicting and you're really senior, then PBS is a good thing.

 

[JohnQ]

At DAL we went with NavTech's CLASS, which is what JetBlue uses. It is also a follow-on to the AirWare product that NWA uses and (some of) TWA used.

I actually worked on the PBS rollout project, answering questions in the lounge, phones in a call center, teaching classes, etc.

I have YET to meet ONE pilot who would like to go back to the Line of Time system. Most guys are very happy. You get more of what you want, more of the time, than you ever did with the old system. That does not mean it is perfect, but it does mean that most guys are happier more often.

That said, I like PBS because we got THIS particular product. Other vendors have less impressive products. In fact if we had gone with the CARMEN product that our FAs have, I don't think you would see so many positive vibes. Also, we have several UNION-negotiated protections, including union oversight of the bid awards. There have been several times where we rejected the first run from the company because we were dissatisfied with it. The company usually reluctantly sees it our way, reruns the category, and we are all happy.

But I can't imagine anyone wanting to go back. That is why all the guys who knee-jerk say "no PBS" whenever the company proposes it at least need to talk to various pilot groups who actually have it.

 

[J32driver]

I'm at JetBlue with the NavTech CLASS system. I'm a junior lineholder. I generally get what I ask for. I've gotten every single specific date off that I've asked for so far. I also generally get the type of trips I prefer too.

On reserve, I got exactly what I asked for and usually set up a 7 or 8 day break once during each month of reserve.

In general:
days off= 100%
trips bid for = 75%

Its a good system and I'd be upset to loose it.

 

[ToThePain]

I'm hoping it will work out. First month of PBS I didn't get a weekend off while before I was getting two weekends off when I could bid a reserve line that I wanted. I asked for one day off, multiple bid's via a line, reserve A and reserve B and did not get it, and no it wasn't a holiday. I am junior, hired in April at CAL; so it may work out down the road. The other downside is that as a reservist you get called for people calling out becuase they didn't get the line they wanted.(I'm guessing this is the case) I have been short called twice this month and not once over the busy months during the summer. I finished with 75 hours (on reserve) for the Sept which I understand is unusual for the month considering the normal slowdown.

 

[mynameisjim]

The other downside is that as a reservist you get called for people calling out becuase they didn't get the line they wanted.(I'm guessing this is the case)

You're saying people call in sick on sunny days, or when they have something better to do?! No way! To the presses!

What an abuse of company resources!

 

[pkober]

I'm hoping it will work out. First month of PBS I didn't get a weekend off while before I was getting two weekends off when I could bid a reserve line that I wanted. I asked for one day off, multiple bid's via a line, reserve A and reserve B and did not get it, and no it wasn't a holiday. I am junior, hired in April at CAL; so it may work out down the road. The other downside is that as a reservist you get called for people calling out becuase they didn't get the line they wanted.(I'm guessing this is the case) I have been short called twice this month and not once over the busy months during the summer. I finished with 75 hours (on reserve) for the Sept which I understand is unusual for the month considering the normal slowdown.

We weren't using PBS for September. I only flew 35 hours on reserve and that included a three I picked up during the aggressive window. It will be interesting to see what happens to reserves in Oct. Good luck and hopefully you'lle have a line soon.

Another thing people complained about is the lack of open time. There is less under PBS but it's not as bad as the "sky is falling" types want you to believe. I was able to completely change my entire schedule for Oct, just like under the old system.

 

[ExAF]

Depends

At NWA it used to be great. It contributed greatly to QOL. Now it is a hammer the company uses to zero out open time while screwing up everyone's schedule in the process. It depends on the product and the parameters used. Before...Good. Now...Bad. But then again it IS the new NWA. QOL is not a consideration.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I think you will find if you ask the individuals that have posted on this topic, that there respective companies have made a concerted effort to make the program work. If the company abides by whatever agreements they have reached with their union on PBS, and they do not try to screw the pilot group again and again, then PBS is great.

You must have good cooperation with your management inorder for this method of bidding to be beneficial to BOTH sides.

 

[airlinepilot]

Compared to our present system at Southwest Airlines.....PBS in a big fat ZERO on scale of 1 to 10. Our system allows everyone to improve quality of life and/or gives them maximum latitude to earn more money. I have used PBS and it hopefully will never get in the door at SWA

 

[radarlove]

You probably are afraid of v-nav and EFIS too, aren't you?

 

[airlinepilot]

since you asked

I guess you meant "affraid" as in scared (not sure since you did not spell it correctly)! Which, has nothing to do with one system or the other.......just a matter of which system is the best. Additionally since you asked the question.....I have flown VNAV on a EFIS 737-700 but like PBS, it was for a company that is nothing compared to SWA.

 

[radarlove]

Um, might wanna get that spell-checker tuned up there big boy.

While you're at it, look up the term "Luddite", you'll see your own reflection.

 

[Benhuntn]

AirlinePilot
AMEN BRO!!!!!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

You probably are afraid of v-nav and EFIS too, aren't you?

Gee....didn't know that V-nav/EFIS were somehow connected to PBS...but...maybe it is in some strange way.

At my old "legacy" carrier, I flew the 737 with all the bells and whistles...and they lost tons of money, had horrible mgmt/employee relations, furloughs, rumours of the next calamity to befall the employees...and have been in BK.

Here at SWA, we don't use the A/T, or V-NAV...and we make money, save fuel, enjoy great mgmt/ labor relations, hiring like crazy, more new airplanes coming, good rumours, no ALPA, ...and 34 straight (coming up on 35) years of consistent profitability.

For what it's worth....the transition from the "legacy" "full up" 737 to the SWA way of operating was no sweat.

Tejas

 

[radarlove]

I didn't know that making money was related to v-nav or autothrottles either. Is that the point you're making?

Or is the point that staying in the 1980s, technology-wise, is always a good idea?

Here's the question you didn't answer: how much more money would SWA earn if it used technology instead of fearing it?

 

[airlinepilot]

Making more money

The issue of this post was PBS....my point about our system for trading, picking up or giving away trips makes it easy, as a pilot, to make more money or get time off. As far as VNAV or EFIS making more money......I don't think it makes any difference for us at SWA.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I didn't know that making money was related to v-nav or autothrottles either. Is that the point you're making?

Or is the point that staying in the 1980s, technology-wise, is always a good idea?

Here's the question you didn't answer: how much more money would SWA earn if it used technology instead of fearing it?

You obviously do not know much about SWA.

 

[densoo]

Jury is still out on the recent implementation of PBS at this airline. In the biggest bases, the FO's average was programmed to be 86.5 hr/mo. Once it got through about 55% of the seniority list, the program saw it wouldn't be able to assign all the hours at that rate and bumped everyone from that point on to well above 90 hr/mo, whether they wanted it or not.

Since these can't be dropped by the pilot due to reserve coverage, there are far more trips being "advertised" in open time than before, 93 of 167 are advertised open pairings in one base and 87 of 181 in another. Of course, no one can pick them up because eveyone else already is flying near their max.

Common sense would say that a good number of these "advertised" trips will turn into sick calls throughout the month, straining the already to-the-bone staffing. If the company starts calling line pilots to fly these trips involuntarily at time-and-a-half, it would be an indication that somethings isn't working quite right. And some of the money saved by using PBS will be lost paying pilots time-and-a-half.

 

[radarlove]

You obviously do not know much about SWA.

But you have to admit, I can spell "afraid" correctly.

 

[Benhuntn]

I am the autothrottle babie... and I am good at it. I am also the Vnav and I am even better at it.....

 

[radarlove]

I am the autothrottle babie... and I am good at it. I am also the Vnav and I am even better at it.....

Really, with the spelling! "Babie"?

Normally I wouldn't bring it up, but I get called to task for spelling something right, now I'm a little sensitive.

 

[BoilerUP]

Please bring the thread back on track with PBS-related posts. My company is interested in it and it is very important to get input from every pilot group that uses it. Thanks...

 

[radarlove]

Quick take: PBS allows pilots to choose from the bucket of pairings (I don't believe there is a system yet to actually generate pairings concurrently).

Regular bidding allows pilots to choose from lines that were already made up from the bucket of pairings.

Every pilot is his own best scheduler, so building a schedule from raw pairings will always be the best solution.

Gotchas: the junior guy gets boned because senior guys will take all the good pairings first. But on the whole, the aggregate "happiness factor" goes up due to the optimization routines.

Also, if the company purposely under-mans the schedule, then, as a poster already wrote, the computer program will not be able to optimize your schedule, because it's too busy trying to fill your line to 90+ hours.

You have to be careful about the parameters, companies can sneakily change things as they intall the program--this isn't a problem with PBS per se, it's a problem that a company is sneakily changing things.

PBS is a very elegant solution to bidding, since nobody knows I need the third Thursday of this month off, but I want to work W-Th-Fr the other three weeks.

Bottom line: proper implementation of PBS is the best possible way to schedule. However, if you aren't manned properly, your schedule is going to suck. If you're very junior, your schedule is going to suck (but you will probably get that third Thursday off--and nothing else you wanted).

I would be very wary of implementing PBS at a non-union airline due to the sneaky stuff I talked about earlier.

But the idea that some dingleberry working on the scheduling team can somehow come up with a better line than I can myself, given the same pairing choices, is crazy.

 

[mynameisjim]

Well written, radar

 

[beytzim]

I agree with radarlove as well. I think you're a fool to automatically dismiss PBS just of you may of heard. SWA can make PBS one kick a$$ schedule program. It's all up to us, the BOD, and the company.

I hear a lot of guys complaining about PBS taking away our vacation overlap awards. Big whoop! All you have to do is make the company give us 50 trips per vacation vs. 26, or perhaps give 14 days vs. 7. You see, it's a tit for tat: company wants PBS, fine, we want 20 weeks of vacation a year! i.e. we can PBS the greatest solution to out schedule woes, it all depends on NEGOTIATIONS!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I didn't know that making money was related to v-nav or autothrottles either. Is that the point you're making?

Or is the point that staying in the 1980s, technology-wise, is always a good idea?

Here's the question you didn't answer: how much more money would SWA earn if it used technology instead of fearing it?

Well...earlier on this thread, someone tried to connect the SWA pilots dislike of PBS to being afraid to v-nav and efis. Maybe I just took it a few steps further.

bottom line is....if you work at SWA, and don't like the way the airplanes are operated....you should know who to go and talk to about that.

If you don't work at SWA, and you don't like the way we operate our airplanes....why does it bother you? It works for us....

...oh, and we don't seem to be too excited about PBS. Why should that bother anybody?

Tejas

 

[JetMonkey]

We here at America West have been using it for years, just about everyone I've talk to about it is a pro at it by now and I've learned alot of good tools and tricks. At first when I got hired I was a little leary about using it cause like many of you I had come from the old "bidding" every month from a pairing book but now that I've been using the PBS for a couple of years, I like it. One thing it will do (after getting use to it) is it will dramatically cut down your time bidding. Before, I had to spend hours scanning for trips that were commutable, on certain days of the week, release time so I could catch a flight home, etc. but PBS takes care of all that mess! Our system allows us to save a bid so we can use it again next monthif you wish to keep all the parameters the same (a standing bid). Now, bidding is a five second deal for me; I log on, import my standing bid, hit enter and done, I print out my confirmation number and that's it. And hey, if I want to change it from month to month, I can. That the beauty of it, if I want to have an overnight every Tuesday in San Fran I just put that in the system. Have a line that pays more than 90 hrs, or less than 70, am or pm trips, no sit time between flights, short or long layovers, whatever. Even for training events you set what time you want to take your PC and which day of the week you prefer, just tell it what you want to do. It takes a couple of months to get the hang of it, but once you get use to it, it really is a good system..

 

[Skyboy722]

I agree with radarlove as well. I think you're a fool to automatically dismiss PBS just of you may of heard. SWA can make PBS one kick a$$ schedule program. It's all up to us, the BOD, and the company.

I hear a lot of guys complaining about PBS taking away our vacation overlap awards. Big whoop! All you have to do is make the company give us 50 trips per vacation vs. 26, or perhaps give 14 days vs. 7. You see, it's a tit for tat: company wants PBS, fine, we want 20 weeks of vacation a year! i.e. we can PBS the greatest solution to out schedule woes, it all depends on NEGOTIATIONS!

Unrealistic. And I'm not automatically dismissing PBS, I'm dismissing it after working under both systems at a previous airline. When it was implemented, I lost 3 days off and nearly ALL of my desired pairings- overnight. No going back. I'm pretty happy with the system the way it is now, and I get the impression that most are.