Paying For 737 Type ??????????

[kilroy]

Getting ready for HPA and was wondering how people are typically paying for type. Loans,grants,credit cards. any easy way.......any special financing ??

 

[CSY Mon]

Savings?

 

[leardrivr]

HPA? I got a suggestion. Make your employer pay for your type when they are ready to upgrade you.! Or when you do the initial. (whichever they prefer) Unless Southwest has guarented you a job after you get the type on your own.

Down with PFT!!!

 

[kilroy]

I used to think the same way with paying for your training. And I still do for the most. But from talking to a sh!t load of people and the quality of life they have as a SWA employ is far worth the risk and expense. Trust me I,d never pay for my training with any other company out there. But I will definitely pay for a 737 type if it means being happy doing what I love. FLYING..........

 

[English]

By all means, someone else should pay for your 737 type.

But, why not SWA? Or even Continental or Delta?
http://www.wai.org/education/scholarship_list_2005.cfm

Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 Type Ratings

Minimum Requirements include a U.S. FAA Airline Transport Pilot Certificate, FAA Class 1 Medical Certificate, at least 23 years of age, 2,500 hours total flight time, or 1,500 turbine total, including a minimum of 1,000 hours in turbine aircraft as the pilot-in-command, as defined by 14 CFR PART I. Recency of experience is considered. Only pilot time in fixed wing aircraft will be considered (please exclude simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, “Other”, etc.)

A high school diploma or equivalency is required. Graduation from an accredited, four-year college is preferred. Applicants must have established authorization to work in the United States.They must read, write, and speak English fluently. Please supply at least three letters from any individuals who can attest to the applicant’s flying skills. WAI membership will be verified.

To obtain an application, please send your mailing address to: Southwest Airlines, Attn: B737, Scholarship, People Department HDQ/4HR, 2702 Love Field Drive, Dallas, TX 75235. All scholarship applications must be received on or before December 15, 2004.

(Scholarship value: TBD)


Continental Airlines 737 Flight Training Scholarships Just added!

Continental Airlines is offering two Boeing 737 type rating training scholarships. Criteria requires a minimum of 1,500 hours total time, 1,000 hours turbine, 1,000 hours multi, 700 hours PIC, 200 hours instrument.

Applicant must possess commercial and instrument ratings, a first class medical with no waivers, and must have successfully completed the ATP written exam.

(Scholarship value $8,000; Total value $16,000)

Delta Air Lines Boeing B737-800 Type Rating Certificate Scholarship

Delta Air Lines will award two B737-800 Type Rating Certificates to qualified recipients that are currently enrolled or have a Baccalaureate Degree. Candidates must have a minimum GPA of 2.5 (4.0) and have leadership potential. All training will be approximately six concurrent weeks and conducted in Atlanta , Georgia . Lodging accommodations and round trip airfare will be provided during training (meals not included).

In addition to the B737-800 Type Certificate, each recipient will receive a trip to the 16th Annual International Women in Aviation Conference (including round-trip airfare, hotel accommodations and conference fee).

Your résumé must include the following: all schools attended, including high school with city and state for each school, GPA, dates attended for college and all degrees. If applicable, all military history, including all occupations, ranks, education, and dates must be included. Candidates should list academic honors, scholarships, awards, and special achievements.

Minimum qualifications include the following: commercial, instrument, and multiengine land certificates a minimum of 500 hours total time , and a current first class FAA medical certificate. Candidates must include a copy of their automobile driver's license, current passport, and list any moving violations, dates, locations and associated details for the last seven years. Candidates must include a statement of conviction (any type of violation of the law, moving or not) with complete dates and locations. Candidates should provide details pertinent to any letters of inquiries from the FAA regarding any aircraft incidents or accidents, and a list of all FAA checkride failures.

(Scholarship Value $35,000; Estimated Total Value $70,000.)


These scholarships are avialable to Women In Aviation members. Men and women are both eligible to be members.

 

[CaptainBrazilia]

I basically busted my @rse for two-and-a-half years to save for it.

Whether I get the nod at SWA or not, it was still a great experience!

 

[Tripower455]

Down with PFT!!!

I guess the only way to learn to fly is in the military?

If you went the civilian route, you paid for your training......... (more than likely)

 

[kilroy]

It really s()cks you fly your whole live never paying for your training at a company then the company you really want to get into pretty much says no type fat chance of an interview. With regards to english suggestion .well Continentel.......not hiring.furlough instead....Delta..not hiring .furlough also. so you see although your idea sounds good English the other carriers are going down the tube while SWA is kicking @ss...........

 

[English]

It doesn't matter if Continental or Delta is furloughing. I didn't post job leads, I posted scholarship opportunities that those airlines are sponsoring.

 

[leardrivr]

One peice of advice I got early on in my career is not to limit your self to one company. Shop around. Apply to everyone. Even look into different sides of the industry (corporate, freight, government......). There is more to flying than just SWA. Or any 121 carrier for that matter. I am flying as a b747 f.o. for a international freight airline now and I love the 121 enviornment. I will upgrade soon and I won't have to pay for it or sign a contract. I also applyied to SWA and many other airlines I wanted to work for but It won't work out anytime soon because SWA want's the type, The other company wan't bus time and so on and so on........ I guess what I am trying to say is don't limit yourself. I have done many cool things so far in aviation. I was a CFI. I have done the part 91 thing. And I spent alot of time in a 135 enviornment. I have enjoyed it all. Don't waste your money. If you were meant to be a 737 guy someone will pay you to get typed. No pro pilot should ever have to pay out of his own pocket to score a job in a peticular aircraft or for a peticular company. Just one guys opinion. Good luck!

 

[PTinbound]

Get The Type

Don't waste your money. If you were meant to be a 737 guy someone will pay you to get typed. No pro pilot should ever have to pay out of his own pocket to score a job in a peticular aircraft or for a peticular company. Just one guys opinion. Good luck!

Leardrivr has some good and profound things to say, EXCEPT those last couple of sentences. Also, I did limit myself to Southwest initially. I wanted to work here desperately, so I applied only here when I got the 1000 PIC (I had gotten the type in June of '01, 3 months before 9/11, when I had 700 PIC). Had I been shot down or not called for the interview within a reasonable time, plan B was to apply at the other guys. It made it easier at the interview to go in with the attitude of "I didn't apply anywhere else because I don't want to work anyplace else". Of course, I've always been a SWA junkie so I would agree with those who would apply elsewhere to be safe.

As for buying the type, I had the GI bill help 60%, but the rest went on one of those low interest credit card conveniece checks. I would have made 55k a year for the rest of my life at my old job. I'll make that easily my first year (by flying extra), and second year should be a little over 95k by flying an extra 1.5 days a month (and still getting more days off than my old job). So by the end of year two I've made 40 grand more to cover the $7380 investment. Do the math, folks. Also, I do 8% into the 401k, and 7.3% of my salary is matched dollar for dollar. We also get profit sharing after the first full calendar year, which historically has averaged around 10% of your W2 at the end of the year. If I only get 8%, and a return of 8% on all my 401k/profitsharing, I figured I'd end up with just over 2.6 MILLION (all MY money that they can't take away) after a 25 year career. At that point the $7380 seems like chump change.
So I'll be off sailing in the Bahamas when all the retired "professional pilots" who couldn't "PFT" for some misguided "principle" are greeters at Wal-Mart.

 

[Noah1825]

type rating gamble?

SW has a great product and great people, but what I do not understand is the process...after the interview. I personally know outstanding pilots and great people (with the 737 type rating) that interviewed and did not get hired. This has not been an isolated incident. From reading various "gouge" sites you can read the frustration with the process. I understand that not everyone will be hired that is interviewed. What is the truth in regards to the decision board posting the list of potential new hires at the various bases for "feedback"? Is this fact or fiction? I can't personally justify gambling money for a type rating only to be blown out of the water by somebody I may barely know or by someone holding a grudge.

 

[kilroy]

From what I hear alot of there desicions are first impression types. I know alot of guys with tons of ratings 6000+ hrs. 4000 pic. but they come across some goofy muthaf()cker you couldn,t spent 5 minutes with without b!tch slapping. never mind a week..So experience isn,t all they want. personality it seems is the most important with real life experiences . not a type with 11000 + hrs.The type only helps open the door.

 

[bafanguy]

kilroy,

Can't tell if you're furloughed or not, but some states have money available to rehab laid-off people. It's called WIC or WIA, or something like that. It's been covered on the forums in the past. I just can't remember the details. HPA has someone staff who can lead you through the details.

 

[Tripower455]

One peice of advice I got early on in my career is not to limit your self to one company. Shop around. Apply to everyone. Even look into different sides of the industry (corporate, freight, government......). There is more to flying than just SWA. Or any 121 carrier for that matter. I am flying as a b747 f.o. for a international freight airline now and I love the 121 enviornment. I will upgrade soon and I won't have to pay for it or sign a contract. I also applyied to SWA and many other airlines I wanted to work for but It won't work out anytime soon because SWA want's the type, The other company wan't bus time and so on and so on........ I guess what I am trying to say is don't limit yourself. I have done many cool things so far in aviation. I was a CFI. I have done the part 91 thing. And I spent alot of time in a 135 enviornment. I have enjoyed it all. Don't waste your money. If you were meant to be a 737 guy someone will pay you to get typed. No pro pilot should ever have to pay out of his own pocket to score a job in a peticular aircraft or for a peticular company. Just one guys opinion. Good luck!

Lot's of good advice, but you also have to take a look at the state of the industry.

My dad was a Pan Am pilot, starting in the waning days of the "Catch Me if You Can" era, and all I ever wanted to be since I was a kid was a Pan Am 747 Captain.

By the time I was competitive, time/experience wise, it was around 1990, and virtually NO ONE was hiring except SWA and a few smaller companies. It was similar to todays environment, but on a much smaller scale.
I couldn't even fathom spending $8k (that I didn't have) for an INTERVIEW, so I sent 50-100 resumes a week to every backwater cargo outfit and half assed airline that I could, as well as keeping my stuff current with all the big guys. No calls. Meanwhile, several of my buddies got jobs at SWA and kept bugging me to get the type and apply. By the time '94 rolled around, I was desperate to get out of the commuters after 8 years, so I depleted my savings, and borrowed another $4k from my dad and got the 737 type and submitted the app. A year later, I got my interview, and 6 months later, I was in class. FWIW, I had a 2 year AS degree, 7300 tt, 5400 pic turbine (121/135) and 5 type ratings when I got hired at SWA. I was a bit intimidated at the interview when I saw that most of the other guys were ex military, with a few ring knockers in the mix. I figured that there was no way that they'd hire a scumbag commuter pilot with all of this obvious talent interviewing. Thankfully, I was wrong.

Getting the type was absolutely the best gamble that I ever took, and I still can't believe how lucky I was/am to get hired at SWA. It's by far the best job I have ever had. I was in recurrent a few days ago and they were talking about how many airplanes that we are buying, how many people we are hiring, and how much profit we made, all in an industry that is faltering on the verge of collapse. I took some serious ribbing from buddies at the other carriers for going to yet another commuter, when they were at the big boys, and to be honest, I entertained thoughts of jumping ship a few times. Again, it's better to be lucky than good, and my laziness paid off.

For the record, I never paid for any other of my 5 types. The "professional" companies I worked for prior to SWA all paid for my types, yet, I wouldn't go back to any of them for the world. After 3 BKs and several furloughs prior to SWA, it's nice to know that my future is as secure as it will ever be flying airplanes.

The type is the price for admission. It is another way to weed out potential applicants and in this environment, where people are paying many thousands of dollars for commuter FO jobs, SWA CAN require it. I am not defending the need for it, as I feel that today it is a silly requirement, especially considering the experience level of the applicants these days. IMHO, the type requirement is there to gauge the "seriousness" and commitment of the applicant, and does not necessarily mean that we are getting the best pilots in all cases, and many great and qualified people are not hired because they wouldn't get the type.

Just my experience and $.02.

Good luck to all the SWA applicants!

 

[leardrivr]

Lot's of good advice, but you also have to take a look at the state of the industry.

My dad was a Pan Am pilot, starting in the waning days of the "Catch Me if You Can" era, and all I ever wanted to be since I was a kid was a Pan Am 747 Captain.

By the time I was competitive, time/experience wise, it was around 1990, and virtually NO ONE was hiring except SWA and a few smaller companies. It was similar to todays environment, but on a much smaller scale.
I couldn't even fathom spending $8k (that I didn't have) for an INTERVIEW, so I sent 50-100 resumes a week to every backwater cargo outfit and half assed airline that I could, as well as keeping my stuff current with all the big guys. No calls. Meanwhile, several of my buddies got jobs at SWA and kept bugging me to get the type and apply. By the time '94 rolled around, I was desperate to get out of the commuters after 8 years, so I depleted my savings, and borrowed another $4k from my dad and got the 737 type and submitted the app. A year later, I got my interview, and 6 months later, I was in class. FWIW, I had a 2 year AS degree, 7300 tt, 5400 pic turbine (121/135) and 5 type ratings when I got hired at SWA. I was a bit intimidated at the interview when I saw that most of the other guys were ex military, with a few ring knockers in the mix. I figured that there was no way that they'd hire a scumbag commuter pilot with all of this obvious talent interviewing. Thankfully, I was wrong.

Getting the type was absolutely the best gamble that I ever took, and I still can't believe how lucky I was/am to get hired at SWA. It's by far the best job I have ever had. I was in recurrent a few days ago and they were talking about how many airplanes that we are buying, how many people we are hiring, and how much profit we made, all in an industry that is faltering on the verge of collapse. I took some serious ribbing from buddies at the other carriers for going to yet another commuter, when they were at the big boys, and to be honest, I entertained thoughts of jumping ship a few times. Again, it's better to be lucky than good, and my laziness paid off.

For the record, I never paid for any other of my 5 types. The "professional" companies I worked for prior to SWA all paid for my types, yet, I wouldn't go back to any of them for the world. After 3 BKs and several furloughs prior to SWA, it's nice to know that my future is as secure as it will ever be flying airplanes.

The type is the price for admission. It is another way to weed out potential applicants and in this environment, where people are paying many thousands of dollars for commuter FO jobs, SWA CAN require it. I am not defending the need for it, as I feel that today it is a silly requirement, especially considering the experience level of the applicants these days. IMHO, the type requirement is there to gauge the "seriousness" and commitment of the applicant, and does not necessarily mean that we are getting the best pilots in all cases, and many great and qualified people are not hired because they wouldn't get the type.

Just my experience and $.02.

Good luck to all the SWA applicants!

The price for admission? How did we get to the point were we are reqiured to spend are own money to prove how much we want the job? The type requirement is there to gauge the "seriousness" and commitment of an Applicant? What about every thing you have already accomplished in your career to become eligable to apply in the first place. The fact is they need you more than you need them. Companies get a way with PFT becayse pilots let them get away with it. We have been conditioned to believe that it is a sacrifice we have to make to land the dream job. SWA and other places with with type requirments are doing this to save on training costs. If it were only the type that mattered wy even interview? If they don't like your personality than you just wasted your own money to be told no. One other thing. I understand SWA is the industry leader right now. And for the near future. But consider this. I have flown with alot of ex Eastern, Pan Am, And TWA guys who thought the same way about there company when they hired on. So don't count on SWA to provide your retirement. I have a retirement plan were I work( at the scum bag freight outfit) but I also invest in my own stuff (roth ira, mutuals,.........) and own part of the family business. I understand SWA is the place to be right now. I would love to work there. I just cant bring my self to pay for my own training. I am an experienced pro pilot and that should be enough. Besides if they SWA dosn't hire me I am still going to retire with several millon dollars! WHOA HOOO!!!!!!!!!!. Just one guys perspective no disrespect. Good luck to all!

 

[Tripower455]

The price for admission? How did we get to the point were we are reqiured to spend are own money to prove how much we want the job? The type requirement is there to gauge the "seriousness" and commitment of an Applicant? What about every thing you have already accomplished in your career to become eligable to apply in the first place. The fact is they need you more than you need them. Companies get a way with PFT becayse pilots let them get away with it.

The type rating is the price of admission if you want to work at SWA. They don't care where or how you get it, as long as you have it. I didn't/don't like it, but I am glad I paid for and got it. You also need an ATP, Commercial and multi, as well as experience. They are all requirements to work at SWA. Most outfits require ATP, ME ratings etc, and don't pay for you to get them.

We have been conditioned to believe that it is a sacrifice we have to make to land the dream job. SWA and other places with with type requirments are doing this to save on training costs.

It can't possibly save on training costs at SWA. Maybe insurance, but that is doubtful as well, since there is no time in type requirement. I have been at 8 other 135 and 121 carriers before SWA, and the training syllabus here is no more abbreviated than any of them, and longer than some of the more "professional" outfits that paid for my other types.

BTW, SWA is far from my "dream job", but it'll do.........

If it were only the type that mattered wy even interview? If they don't like your personality than you just wasted your own money to be told no.

True. That's why it is a gamble, but then again, so is this entire career.

One other thing. I understand SWA is the industry leader right now. And for the near future. But consider this. I have flown with alot of ex Eastern, Pan Am, And TWA guys who thought the same way about there company when they hired on. So don't count on SWA to provide your retirement.

This is very true and one of the main reasons I chose to go to SWA and not leave for UAL or AA. I am well aware of the pitfalls of this career. I have the best chance out of any of the other 121 carriers of seeing out a good part (if not all) of a 29 year career, most of it as a Captain. SWA has awesome management, and hopefully will continue to have it. There are no guarantees, but since I chose this career, I figured I'd go with the least risk.

The fact that we are hiring and making money right now is pretty indicative of the how good SWA's management is. Pan Am, TWA, Eastern etc (I worked for the commuters for all of them) made money DESPITE themselves for many, many years. Their lack of management insight (among other things) caught up with all of them and they are history. That alone makes the $8k worth the risk....

I have a retirement plan were I work( at the scum bag freight outfit) but I also invest in my own stuff (roth ira, mutuals,.........) and own part of the family business. I understand SWA is the place to be right now. I would love to work there. I just cant bring my self to pay for my own training. I am an experienced pro pilot and that should be enough. Besides if they SWA dosn't hire me I am still going to retire with several millon dollars! WHOA HOOO!!!!!!!!!!. Just one guys perspective no disrespect. Good luck to all!

I am also maxing out my retirement savings because you can never tell. I had too many ex Pan Am and Eastern guys jerking gear for me at the commuters that didn't get enough put away early enough, and HAD to go to work at a commuter to pay the bills. I am not against working at a commuter if anything happens, I jhust don't want to HAVE to do it.

Not many civilians get their flight training paid for, so you are in the minority if you can't bring yourself to pay for your own training. If you are civilian trained, I'll bet you paid for most of your training.

BTW, I've never paid one cent to SWA for my training..... In fact, they pay me to be there!

Is that you Quickin?

 

[leardrivr]

Yes I did pay for my training up to my C.F.I.I. But from my multi on I did not pay a dime. You bring a very good argument for your case. However I don't think those who paid for there 737 type only to be turned down at SWA would agree with you. For those who were already type somewhere else well it wont hurt as much to be rejected. I am glad it worked out for you and I respect why you did it. However the PFT culture that we operate in today really brings all of us down. It is bad for pilots everywhere. I can clearly see why it is a risk worth taking at SWA. However there is alot more to our industry than just one company. Being a professional pilot just is not what it used to be and in my humble opinion PFT has alot to do with that. Along with the poor management you pionted out. We are all in this industry together! Some how we have lost track of that. Eventualy everyone is effected by longstanding policies that degrade our profession. So I am glad you got on with the "big guy's" but don't lose site of were you came from. There are alot of great pilots who are still working for those "scum bag operaters". They don't desreve to be treated like second class aviators just because the have not won the SWA lottery.

 

[akanodoz]

What's the difference?

Why is the Type such a sore spot for folks like leardrivr? Everything which helps you meet minimum application criteria costs money and time; if you want to be better than minimums, it will cost you more money and time. The same irrational logic would say that I shouldn't have to pay for my own ATP checkride, my own college, my own 1st class medical, my own resume paper, etc.... If that's PFT/PFE (Pay For Employment), then I'm okay with it.

I do luv to hear about people who refuse to get the Type rating on principle. I'm also glad to see that people are out there with such vitriol for SW and their Type Rating preference, and I'm glad people are out there who think "they need us more than we need them"...that's means fewer applicants.

And - by the way - we pay for training in the military, too; it's just that the form of currency isn't dollars. It's an obligation of 9 years or so, forfeiture of the right not to get shot at, acceptance of a very turmoil-laden lifestyle, and a very heavy non-monetary tithe paid by one's family. You could also get hurt or worse. Guess what? I'm okay with that too.

You pay to play - if the price is too high, then you don't have to pay. Simple.

Kilroy, will send you Private msg regarding how I paid for my HPA type.

Cheers,
akanodoz

 

[Bako Cap]

PFI - Pay For Interview

It's sad to try to justify PFI (Pay for Interview). I'm actually OK with having to have a 737 type to be hired and work for SWA, because it's on their list of requirments for hire and has been forever. But, I can't go out and spend 8-10K for a type just to get an interview and not get hired. It just doesn't feel right. I'll keep my app updated and just hope for the best. Then when or if I get hired I'll just have to nut up and get what every other pilot at SWA has, a type rating.