Pay for training.

[lancair1]

I've heard this darn argument a million times and I am sick and tired of it!

Here are the facts as I see them:

1. Though not the majority, there are 300 hour pilots that can out-fly and out-think 1,500 hour pilots.

2. There will always be people who WHINE and COMPLAIN about the path you take. ie. You should have been in the military, you should have gone to ERAU, you should have gone to FSI, you should have done EXACTLY WHAT I DID!

3. To use the logic of 99% of the Anti-Pay-For-Training Members:
Before you ever tell someone about what path they must take to keep the sanctity of aviation afloat, let everyone know how you got through college, and every last bit of flight training. If you paid for it all yourself, I applaud you. If you didn't, then you're a FOOL FOR EVEN COMMENTING!

4. You take a moron, add a bunch of instructor ratings and 1500 hours of any flight time, and you STILL HAVE A MORON!!!!

 

[Fr8Dog]

Ok if you are sick and tired of hearing about it then why the F*&K did you start a post about PFT. This has been talked about way to many times on this board and we are all sick of it so just let go away and don't say another **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing thing.

 

[Wiggums]

I've heard this darn argument a million times and I am sick and tired of it!

Then why did you start a new thread titled with the subject?

Here are the facts as I see them:

1. Though not the majority, there are 300 hour pilots that can out-fly and out-think 1,500 hour pilots.

What the hell does this have to do with PFT? Are you saying that the pilots that are PFTing are the ones that can out-fly and out-think pilots with more time? I think not.

2. There will always be people who WHINE and COMPLAIN about the path you take. ie. You should have been in the military, you should have gone to ERAU, you should have gone to FSI, you should have done EXACTLY WHAT I DID!

I don't care what you do as long as you don't take a seat that should be filled with a paid pilot. I don't see any anti-pft people saying that you should do what they did, they just want you to not PFT.

3. To use the logic of 99% of the Anti-Pay-For-Training Members:
Before you ever tell someone about what path they must take to keep the sanctity of aviation afloat, let everyone know how you got through college, and every last bit of flight training. If you paid for it all yourself, I applaud you. If you didn't, then you're a FOOL FOR EVEN COMMENTING!

Sure. College, my parents paid for it. Flight training, parents again. Please explain why I can't be as good as you because you're jealous I had a few advantages. Also, please explain how this has anything to do with PFT.

4. You take a moron, add a bunch of instructor ratings and 1500 hours of any flight time, and you STILL HAVE A MORON!!!!

Yep, sounds like your describing your own career path there. Also, the above has nothing to do with PFT. Didn't I see you on the short bus this morning?

 

[UALX727]

Thinking about buying a job, Lancair???

 

[Bluto]

Hey, hey, go easy on him guys! After all, he does have over 100 hours of flight time! He may already be able to out-think and out-fly us.

Thank goodness for competition like this.

 

[lancair1]

Ok if you are sick and tired of hearing about it then why the F*&K did you start a post about PFT. This has been talked about way to many times on this board and we are all sick of it so just let go away and don't say another **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing thing.

1. Because every time that the minority (those who have paid for their pvt, instrument, commercial, and initial training) TO PROVE THAT THEY CAN FLY THE A/C TO THE COMPANY'S STANDARD, the majority who disagree because it's "not what they did" switch to full auto!

Wiggums:
"What the hell does this have to do with PFT? Are you saying that the pilots that are PFTing are the ones that can out-fly and out-think pilots with more time? I think not."

You've got two types of PFT pilots: Those who paid for a seat for a certain # of hours, and other hand, those who paid for training to get them an interview for a job. If you've got a pilot who paid for ALL of his training, and got hired by the company with 300 hrs vs. you, or whoever, that applied for years and still didn't get hired on, who has the lower number? Who has the job? Oh, and who's still flying 172's?

Wiggums:
"What the hell does this have to do with PFT? Are you saying that the pilots that are PFTing are the ones that can out-fly and out-think pilots with more time? I think not."

If the PFT got the job and is flyiing a canadair,etc. and you're still flying a 172, who is in the better position?

Wiggums:
"Sure. College, my parents paid for it. Flight training, parents again. Please explain why I can't be as good as you because you're jealous I had a few advantages. Also, please explain how this has anything to do with PFT."

Man, I can't even use an example w/o it being returned to me with an accusation of me being jealous of you?
I'll try to make it a little more clear.. Many college grads who paid, have grudges against those who didn't pay. Many E-4's have a grudge against officer's who "just went to college". Many business & industry employees have a grudge against those who "just got an MBA". This is the same crap, I think many people should quit complaing because the person took a different path!

Wiggums:
"Yep, sounds like your describing your own career path there. Also, the above has nothing to do with PFT. Didn't I see you on the short bus this morning?"

I admire your insight to my true self you jackass.


I'm going to instruct. Why? Because the other option will not be available again within my timeframe.

If you take two pilot's on a parallel course and timeline, and they split paths at the PFT or 1000 hrs instruct time point. A year down the road, you've got a PFT with a year worth of experience in a jet or turboprop, and an instructor who has a year in little planes.

The concept of PFT is not just a way of screwing all of you who have instructed! And be honest, if a guy came up to you after you completed your ratings and said: "I've got a citation and fly about 1000 hours per year around the country, you can be my co-pilot if you pay for your own food" You've got to be kidding if you wouldn't have jumped at the opportunity! This thousand hours IS FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN small plane time!

 

[flydog]

Lancair1

The point is not wether you paid for your own college or ratings. Its wether a low time neophyte pays for a JOB when it should go to an experienced pilot that deserves it based on merit.

Your position that a 300 hr pilot can outfly a 1500 hr pilot is ridiculous. Flying for a 121 carrier is not about making the roundest loops or who can wax who in a dog fight. Judgement and experience are 90% of the job. A 300 hr pilot hasnt seen all the weather, turbulence, runway conditions, and barely is comfortable in one type of airplane.

Yes I have seen low time pilots whose skills and judgement exceeded their logbook time and 10,000 hr pilots who couldnt fly to save their life but this is uncommon and irrelevant when it comes to pay for training.

Gulfstream can teach my mother how to fly a jet. It doesnt mean she belongs in any seat as a flight crewmember

Someday when you have an ATP, hours, multi time, etc and you lose a job to a 250 hr guy who has been pedaling a Cessna 172 for 3 months youll understand

 

[Bluto]

Lancair1,
On what exactly are you basing your assumptions? Your boundless experience? Your analogies of building time and experience as a Pilot in Command and instructor, or sitting in the right seat after buying a job do not compare at all to completing a college degree. Apparently, you haven't been to college. If you had, hopefully, you would have noticed that it took more than just some cash to graduate. It takes a great deal of time, and a sustained effort. That is why airlines and officer programs prefer college graduates. Not because they are "smarter", and definitely not because they paid more! If you are looking for someone to condone your unique views, try a less educated forum, or ask someone who sells PFT. I'm sure they'll think you're right on.

 

[RueterF16]

You folks are directing your energies in the wrong direction.

Your complaint shouldn't be with the PFTer's but with Gulfstream.

I know plenty of guys that flew 135 for next to nothing, washed airplanes at their company in exchange for sitting in the right seat to log time, and eventually went on to get there CFI/ATP and jobs at great airlines.

Most PFTer's aren't taking "Jobs" that should be held based on "Merit" as you call it.

If Gulfstream can get guys to pay for their flight time, (as opposed to paying them for it), Good For Them!
If that's the type of company that you want to work for (I can't imagine why) then knock yourself out.

Your real complaint is that PFTer's get their flight time after paying to "work" at Gulfstream, and then have the limited amount of experience and time to get hired somewhere else. Somehow giving them an unfair advantage in the aviation industry. If you need the hours boys and girls follow along.

Neither Gulfstream, nor any other company that follows their practices, has to pay squat for your services, and as unpopular as it sounds, pilots are not such a "hot" commodity these days that they can name their own price.
Gulfstream knows this. They also know that in order to get hired elsewhere, low time pilots will do just about anything to get flight time to make them competitive.

Don't try and distinguish between someone who pays for flight time by being "hired" by a Gulfstream type company, and someone who washes aircraft windows and pays for their own flight time on the weekend.

 

[lancair1]

Bluto,
I'll rough it up a little so that you can understand what I'm suggesting.

College + concurrent full-time job = difficult
College + must drive down to bank 1 time per month to deposit Dad's check = Not as difficult

Both end up with same degree and same job offers.

College + CIME, CFI, CFII, MEI + 1000hrs =difficult
College + CIME + PFT =not as difficult

Both end up with same job offers, only the #2 guy has 1 year of seniority.

I don't know anything about gulfstream, but I've spoke with people who have gone through the FSI fast track program and are now flying with ASA, ERAU grads who went on to fly with ACA. All were very happy with the path they took, but take this with a grain of salt, because they may all be uneducated pilots like myself.

To comment on RueterF16's mention of pilots not being a hot commodity right now, he is exactly right.

You are very confused if you think that you yourself are not "paying" for your own training once you take your first job. This is simple econ. Every aviation business runs on this same concept. We will pay our pilots the minimum we can so that we can maximize our profits.
Why do you think that most flight instructors are stuck working off the clock for many hours each week? Have you ever taken a calculator to the actual wage you make as a flight instructor?
If there are enough pilots available to fill the jobs and more, pay would continue to decrease. Now what is $10 minus $15? You pay it. Think this is impossible? Think again. It's the same as paying for your CIME & instructor ratings.