Pay during training at Southwest

[FatesPawn]

SWAGUY,

This is a program intended to reward first year pilots who fly extra - more money for the 1st year pilot and reduces the staffing requirements for the Company. It is a wiin/win thhat epitomises what thoughtful, interested-base negotiations can produce. To those who make $80K in their first year flying extra, that is great. If you do it flying 90 trips per month, I do not see how that is right.

Chest,

I'll use my own 1st year experience as an illustration (last year BTW)

My total pay for my first 12 months was $74,000. I did this by AGGRESSIVELY maniuplating the system But I was all about QOL too - and a non-commuter.

My PERFECT month was my last month on 1st year pay. The only 1st year pay I earned that month was my PC.

So, how did I HONESTLY do this? The first thing I did is put EVERY trip i had in giveaway. I would trade 3 days for 2 days+1day trips and 4 days for 2-2days to make them more palatable. Someone actually picked up a 4 day trip off my line for goodness sake!

Additionally, I would AGGRESSIVELY watch elitt like a hawk for any net-zero's to pop up. That means that one of our pilots had already picked up an extra day for the company, so I snatched it back. Even trade. Then I would use the time off I created by picking up UNCOVERED Daily open time or Extra Fly.

Now, the CRAP I would pick up (DOT/EF) as a 1st year guy (19.5 3-day trips) simply would NOT be palatable to the same guy that's picking one of my 26.0 3-day's out of my giveaway line. So, if I didn't give away my FAT trip, that 19.5 3-day would still be stuck in DOT for some reserve to cover....

Are there any points you disagree with?

-fate

 

[FatesPawn]

oh, and one more thing. My average TFP was probabaly 110-120 to make that $75,000. I don't really see how you can fly less as a first year guy and make that much. Basically, working smarter not harder was my motto and I was more productive for the company at the same time.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I am just saying that the intent of this benefit was to reward flying over and above your awarded line. It was not intended to replace first year pay with second year. If not, why not just give everyone second year pay for the first two years. Replacing one trip with another is what trip trade and elitt are for. Sometimes a giveaway and pickup are the only way to make a QOL event work out.

Are we talking huge sums in the overall scheme of things? Probably not, but it is a small step that could lead to the erosion of trust and goodwill between the Pilot's union and the Company.

 

[FatesPawn]

I am just saying that the intent of this benefit was to reward flying over and above your awarded line. It was not intended to replace first year pay with second year.

Chest,

I guess that's the crux of the argument. The PILOT GROUP is flying more block hours utilizing the system as I described. We are just shifting productivity from one pilot to another AND being more productive in the process.

2nd year pilot - sees crappy 3 day in DOT, but won't pick it up - or simply doesn't want to wait around until 8am the day prior and run the risk that another more senior (read that more highly paid) pilot bids on it. Then he sees a 1st year guy's 26.0 3 day in giveaway and takes it.

Zero gain for the company, right?

But NOW, the 1st year guy picks up that crappy DOT 3 day at 2nd year pay.

Result? Everyone's happy - INCLUDING THE COMPANY... because they didn't have to burn or even STAFF as many reserves because all the flying is being covered by lineholders. Much cheaper than hiring a couple of extra bodies to cover the extra reserves that would be required.

Great system!

-fate

 

[737tanker]

I am just saying that the intent of this benefit was to reward flying over and above your awarded line. It was not intended to replace first year pay with second year.

Just like the .74 DHR were intended to cover open time and QOL for training was intended so a pilot wouldn't have to train on his off days. Since SWAPA didn't nail down the wordings on those intentions the pilot group has to live with the results. Since SWA didn't nail down the wordings for 2nd year pay they have to live with the results. As FatesPawn says by giving away his pairings he is able to pick up pairings that would normally have to go to a Reserve. SWA is happy it didn't because the Reserve is now available for other flying.

 

[Benhuntn]

As a new guy good luck giving away your hard line month or after that your reserve....I found it easier to just pick up open time.

 

[GuppyWN]

Rock... is this your first airline job?

Gup

 

[StopNTSing]

As a new guy good luck giving away your hard line month or after that your reserve....I found it easier to just pick up open time.

When I was a FNG, commuting on reserve, I found it easier to forget about picking up anything!

 

[Dangerkitty]

As a new guy good luck giving away your hard line month or after that your reserve....I found it easier to just pick up open time.

I heard that in OAK it was/is almost impossible to give away a hard line much less reserve, however I did hear that it was very doable in the other bases.

Is that true?

 

[ivauir]

Making more for working more is great. This incentive was intended to reward those who flew more than their line.

Says who? I don't see anything written in the contract about the "intent". You are being remarkably judgmental, as well as incorrect.

 

[ivauir]

I heard that in OAK it was/is almost impossible to give away a hard line much less reserve, however I did hear that it was very doable in the other bases.

Is that true?

Overall, FO trips can be hard to get rid of, expecially the ones you can hold as a first year ... but it never hurts to try.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Are we talking huge sums in the overall scheme of things? Probably not, but it is a small step that could lead to the erosion of trust and goodwill between the Pilot's union and the Company.

Yeah chest....the goodwill has eroded to the point that the Company now tells all the New Hires during their 1st day of indoc how to do this.....

Tejas

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Yeah chest....the goodwill has eroded to the point that the Company now tells all the New Hires during their 1st day of indoc how to do this.....

Tejas

If the Company rather than the union endorses it, then I cannot say anything about anyone doing this (other than too bad it was not aavailable when I was a new-hire).

 

[FL250]

Yeah CR......I know it does almost seems like it would be cheating the system, and you are right for the reasons it was initially designed. But it actually does work for the way it was intended, a win win for everybody. First year folks that take advantage of trip giveaway/second year pickup seem to always fall on the high productivity side. High productivity from an FO at second year rates is a big win for the company.

As a first year FO, if you don't mind spending some time hawking ELITT and Open Time and flying some extra hours, you are messing up if you don't take advantage of the deal. It also forces you to become proficient at our computer schedule system! I wouldn't call it cheating the system. It's just another one of those little things that makes our company such a great place to work! Everybody is happy

 

[maxpwrset]

If the Company rather than the union endorses it, then I cannot say anything about anyone doing this (other than too bad it was not aavailable when I was a new-hire).

I suppose you also think Lance Captains giving away FO trips so they can pick up Captain trips is wrong?

If the company didn't want guys doing it, they'd say so. There have been other "policy" positions expressed by SWAPA on similar subjects in support of the company. A recent ELITT issue comes to mind. If there was an issue, then it would be brought up and dealt with.

Here's the fact of the matter, I was way more productive for the company being able to discard year 1 stuff in exhange for year two stuff. One month I bagged 141 trips, over 76 of it at year 2 pay. Think I'd work that hard if I had to fly 90 TFP for year 1 pay first?? Not in a million years.

I make more, the company gets a guy to come to work more. It's a win win for all of us.

 

[Tank68]

Chest,

If we are talking intent, the intent to me seems to be for the 1st year guys to pick up as much of the crap (open time) trips that no one wants so they can save there reserves and not have to JA guys which cost the company even more money. So that 1st year guy who trades all his trips could actually be saving the company money and scheduling has more flexiblity with the reserves. Just a thought.

By the way, just finished my first year in OAK, only had 3 hard lines in 12 months. Hard to give that reserve away.

 

[XJ-spartacus]

So using N1's numbers, a new hire can make around 48,000 without making any adjustments to their schedule? Is this correct, or am I missing something else that impacts the W2?

Thanks,

-Spartacus

 

[FatesPawn]

XJ,

That sounds about right.

-fate (fmr XJ)

 

[TurboS7]

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