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Pathetic Spain

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Fly2Scuba

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2003
Posts
377
Hey there was a good streak on this message board of aviation only issues for the past few hours, yet international news certainly affects aviation. Which leads us to the very pathetic recent showing of our supposed ally Spain. The majority of the people (mostly city dwelling spinless liberal p***ies) just voted in the Socialist party because they blame the previous administration for the recent train bombings. Well WTF? Nice message to the terrorists? You win. Is anybody else ticked about this? Osama's loving it cause that whole continent is leaning farther left than all of Berkley. I guess Bin Laden found his vacation destination.
 
What this did was to sentence death on the citizens of Warsaw, Prague, Kiev, Bucharest, and every other nation that has troops over there. Al Quada won the Spanish election - they changed the government and favorably (to them) affected foreign policy. The bombings will now increase - it will probably affect countries in "Old Europe" and some might bring their troops home. However, nations from Eastern Europe still fear Russian re-expansion more than terrorism and will most likely continue to seek favor with the US. All is all, it was a victory for Al Quada.
 
Is this kinda like the Al Quada victory in America? It seems a lot of people are hell bent on getting G.W. out of here.

Talking about policy or administration change, do you think Al Quada would rather have the likes of Bush or Kerry in office?

Could you imagine what would have happened if Gore had been in office? Now that is scary.
 
One would hope that American voters would exhibit a little more courage than to switch their vote to Kerry should something similar happen here a few days before the election. Two things worry me: first, that they might not, and second, that al qaeda will do something here in that hope.

I agree, utterly pathetic.
 
Let's make something clear!.
Afganistan was/is a war on terorism. Irak was/is Bush's personal war. Let's do not have them in the same bowl.
So if Spain has decided to back from Irak is because the new elected cabinet does not have the same interests as Bush has. The Irak war was/is not very popular in many coutries included ours so Spain's former cabinet paid the price.
 
Look what all of this GWB loving has done to better this world in the past 3 years.

People voted out the conservatives in Spain because they thought the government WAS WITHHOLDING EVIDENCE ABOUT THE BOMBING. Could it just be that, maybe, Spaniards don't trust them? They also don't think that Spain's alliance with the US was a good thing for the country. So, let's recap...

US wants to go to war in Iraq. Spain signs up to prosecute "the War on Terror" (although Iraq had nothing to do with it then...even though it does NOW THAT WE SHOWED UP - funny how the tail wags the dog) along with the US, then gets bombed. The reasoning was that they supported the US. So, no support for the US = no bombing (based on present logic - I could obviously be wrong, but it doesn't appear likely; one could argue that Spain would not have been a target had it not been allied with the US).

So, could one argue that Spaniards did not believe that the alliance with the US made them safer? I would buy that argument. God knows that I feel less safe today than I did BEFORE the war in Iraq, mainly because that joint is now a haven for terrorists, where it wasn't before. So, in the prosecution of our misguided detour from the War on Terror, we created a terrorist haven. Funny how it works. Yes, yes, Saddam is a bastard that terrorized his blah blah blah. Dictators in Rwanda and Congo are worse but no one cruises in there to stop it and "liberate" the countries, so I don't buy that logic.

I think it's funny how everyone calls anyone who parts ways with our misguided executive branch a bunch of pansies who just love Hitler and hug trees. Maybe it's time we look in the mirror and realize that WE AREN'T ALWAYS RIGHT AND THAT PEOPLE DON'T LIKE BEING BULLIED. Man, for a bunch of airline pilots a lot of you don't think real hard. Yes, I said that. I'd say the same to my own father (and have), and he does the same thing. It's YOUR lives that are going to be on the line someday, as some pi$$ed off Iraqi is going to hijack YOUR plane based on a grudge he developed when he was 6 years old. Let's see how much you like it when you leave the country and everyone hates you based on your association with Bush. It ain't pretty. A lot of this world hates us already. GWB only makes it worse.

Are you trying to tell us that if Gore were president we wouldn't be chasing the terrorists? Surely you can't think that. Honestly. What say you about the fact that Bush allowed the bin Laden family out of New England just hours after 9-11? You DID know that his family was living around Boston, right? They even had to get special permission, as the whole NAS was shut down. Look it up yourself. We let MATERIAL WITNESSES that could have helped IMMENSELY out of the country at the request of...that's right...the Saudi royal family. So, don't tell all of us that somehow GWB is hard core on terror. He has his buddies. They just happen to be connected all the way up the terror food chain.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/BinLadenFam.html
http://www.missouri.edu/~quinnl/news/familyout.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34405
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...les/2003/09/30/who_let_saudis_flee_after_911/

Here's even an article about the Taliban visiting GWB's home state for oil talks during the time he was governor (1997):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm

...and a little book review from the Orlando Sentinel (2004):

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/feat...r14,1,4962628.story?coll=orl-living-headlines

So, your champion of the anti-terror folk is not exactly pure as the driven snow.

Military might and the threat of force is a good thing, but it isn't the only thing. We can't prosecute this war alone. We need help. We'll go bankrupt trying without it. Diplomacy backed up with a big friggin' gun and some nasty planes is rather good policy. GWB would rather just shoot the guns...then lie about why he did it.
 
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If Spain wants to change their government, that is their democratic right. However to change it within hours following a massive terrorist attack, and to change it to the exact policy desired by the terrorists, sends EXACTLY the wrong message. Capitulation. Appeasement. That terrorism works and Al Quada should increase their bombings.
 
merikeyegro said:
Look what all of this GWB loving has done to better this world in the past 3 years.

People voted out the conservatives in Spain because they thought the government WAS WITHHOLDING EVIDENCE ABOUT THE BOMBING. Could it just be that, maybe, Spaniards don't trust them? They also don't think that Spain's alliance with the US was a good thing for the country. So, let's recap...

US wants to go to war in Iraq. Spain signs up to prosecute "the War on Terror" (although Iraq had nothing to do with it then...even though it does NOW THAT WE SHOWED UP - funny how the tail wags the dog) along with the US, then gets bombed. The reasoning was that they supported the US. So, no support for the US = no bombing (based on present logic - I could obviously be wrong, but it doesn't appear likely; one could argue that Spain would not have been a target had it not been allied with the US).

So, could one argue that Spaniards did not believe that the alliance with the US made them safer? I would buy that argument. God knows that I feel less safe today than I did BEFORE the war in Iraq, mainly because that joint is now a haven for terrorists, where it wasn't before. So, in the prosecution of our misguided detour from the War on Terror, we created a terrorist haven. Funny how it works. Yes, yes, Saddam is a bastard that terrorized his blah blah blah. Dictators in Rwanda and Congo are worse but no one cruises in there to stop it and "liberate" the countries, so I don't buy that logic.


I have to disagree with you on most of this; Al Quada got the message yesterday, they can influence the world. In regards to the Iraq war, Sadam Hussein paid money to Palestinian terrorist families. He supported terrorism and because of the many other awful atrocities he committed Iraq was a logical place to change the region. Some may believe all the conspiracy theories about making up intelligence solely to start a war, but I don't. In the end it was misinformation, but to late to change the fact that we've revolutionized the country. And heck, Sadam's sons were more evil and crazier than him, so when daddy died, that country would be even more dangerous. By going to war now, we did the inevitable. If this war was about oil, why am I still paying $1.60 at the pump. If we theoretically went to war for oil, it would be Saudia Arabia; that country has far more oil reserves than any other. If the world banded together, we could easily take out all the evil dictators. Yet Europe needs to grow a backbone for that utopian reality to occur.

QUOTE]Originally posted by merikeyegro

I think it's funny how everyone calls anyone who parts ways with our misguided executive branch a bunch of pansies who just love Hitler and hug trees. Maybe it's time we look in the mirror and realize that WE AREN'T ALWAYS RIGHT AND THAT PEOPLE DON'T LIKE BEING BULLIED. Man, for a bunch of airline pilots a lot of you don't think real hard. Yes, I said that. I'd say the same to my own father (and have), and he does the same thing. It's YOUR lives that are going to be on the line someday, as some pi$$ed off Iraqi is going to hijack YOUR plane based on a grudge he developed when he was 6 years old. Let's see how much you like it when you leave the country and everyone hates you based on your association with Bush. It ain't pretty. A lot of this world hates us already. GWB only makes it worse.

[/QUOTE]

As the great Dennis Miller has stated, "There are 2 types of people, those who want to think things through indefinitely, and those that act." It reminds me of the Academy Award winning director's speech for best documentary this month when he said "if we just would think things through" comparing this war to Vietnam. Classic Holywood. By the way, Mel Gibson's success - I'm loving it. Well guess what? Crazy evil mother f****s living from the Middle East with lots of money and resources don't really spend alot of time thinking things through. We can't just wait years and years and hope the problem will go away. In retrospect, we should done something over there after the first WTC bombings in the mid 90s. Do you really think that if we pulled completely out of the Middle East, the terrorists would just calm down and be gentle creatures.

QUOTE]Originally posted by merikeyegro


Are you trying to tell us that if Gore were president we wouldn't be chasing the terrorists? Surely you can't think that. Honestly. What say you about the fact that Bush allowed the bin Laden family out of New England just hours after 9-11? You DID know that his family was living around Boston, right? They even had to get special permission, as the whole NAS was shut down. Look it up yourself. We let MATERIAL WITNESSES that could have helped IMMENSELY out of the country at the request of...that's right...the Saudi royal family. So, don't tell all of us that somehow GWB is hard core on terror. He has his buddies. They just happen to be connected all the way up the terror food chain.

Military might and the threat of force is a good thing, but it isn't the only thing. We can't prosecute this war alone. We need help. We'll go bankrupt trying without it. Diplomacy backed up with a big friggin' gun and some nasty planes is rather good policy. GWB would rather just shoot the guns...then lie about why he did it.
[/QUOTE]

Gore wants to always be in touch with his feminine side and his true liberal colors showed with his ranting endorsement speech of Howard Dean a few months ago. As far as Bin Laden's family goes, they disowned Bin Laden a long time ago. So I don't know what left wing conspiracy theory witnesses you're alluding to that would provide any substance to his wear abouts. You're definitely right about the fact we need other countries to help us out in our efforts. Unfortuanetly the majority of people in Spain showed a pathetic display. Even Hans Blix doesn't like it. So if Hitler were alive today, Europe would be his for the taking easily. After all, the majority would not want to tick him off. Well travel to Europe now while it's still classic Europe, because with the ultra liberal policies in place over there, as time goes on, most of those countries will be comprised of Muslim immigrants.
 
Europe has a lousy record with appeasement. I will agree 100% about that. No argument. I'm not sure Hitler would reign again, but appeasement is no policy. I'm just saying that ours isn't great, either. There's a big gap between bullying and appeasement. I'm not sure I stand for either. Somewhere in the middle is a good place to be. The Spanish voters seemed to support fighting terror (based on polls), just not the war in Iraq and not the alliance with the US. They (Iraq and the War on Terror) should not be construed as the same thing.

Europe has been ultra-liberal for YEARS. Nothing has changed. If anything, they've become LESS liberal. EU entry standards forced less government spending, less subsidization, and smaller budget deficits. Most have abided. Some have not.

Al Gore is a touch too liberal for me, but he would not just turn tail and run from the terrorists. I'm not sure any American would.

There were reports of many bin Laden family members showing up at a wedding with Osama after the supposed "disavowment." I'm not saying they're in each other's good graces, but I'm sure someone in that group at least knows where he was on 9-11. Even if they hated each other, I'm guessing that SOMEONE in that group of Saudis we allowed to leave would know SOMETHING about SOMEONE in al Qaeda. I just can't imagine that letting a bunch of Saudis with ties to Osama return to Saudi Arabia was a good idea. Who's to say they knew anything? We'll never know now, however. I would liken this instance to the Boulder PD's handling of the Ramsey case. F-ed up from the start. Just an observation.

I have to say that your response was the most thoughtful yet. I don't agree with some of it, but it was educated nonetheless.
 
from today's Wall Street Journal

Terror and Democracy
The bombers "voted," and Aznar's party lost in Spain.

Tuesday, March 16, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST

So, in their wisdom, Spanish voters ousted the ruling Popular Party on Sunday and elected the Socialists. Only three days after 10 bombs killed 200 in Madrid, this exercise in free choice shows the difference between terror and democracy.

But there's also no denying that the world's terrorists will take away a different, and more dangerous, lesson from the Spanish vote: That by murdering innocents they were able to topple one of the pillars of the Western anti-terror alliance. Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Popular Party, which brought prosperity in eight years of rule and forged a strong bond with the U.S., had seemed headed for victory before Thursday's attacks.

We aren't among those who think the Spanish have repudiated everything Mr. Aznar stood for. A switch of only a few percentage points determined the outcome, and in the wake of Thursday's violence a public outpouring in favor of saying "enough!" is perhaps understandable. A similar wave of fear swept the U.S. after September 11--until it could be tempered by leadership and shaped into a new national resolve.

The Socialists were thus able to exploit the bombings by arguing that somehow they were caused by Mr. Aznar's alliance with America. "Thank You Aznar for al Qaeda Terror," read a banner at a rally in Barcelona. The Socialists were helped by the tactical mistake of the Aznar government in insisting that the bombers had been from the Basque ETA, even as evidence built that Islamists linked to al Qaeda may have been responsible. The Socialists cynically cried "coverup" without any evidence, but the charge played amid Spanish grief.

The temptation will be to over-interpret all of this as a sign of general anti-terror fatigue in the West. Certainly the terrorists will see it that way, helped along by Socialist leader Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. In a radio interview yesterday, Mr. Zapatero declared that the 1,300 Spanish soldiers serving in Iraq will now "obviously" be called home. "The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation is a disaster," he said.

So the terrorists will conclude that, with an investment of only a dozen backpack bombs, they were able to rout a major power. They are sure to try the same thing elsewhere in Europe, and almost certainly between now and the November elections in the U.S. We doubt that an America that has already endured 9/11 would react as the Spanish have, but now is the time for President Bush to begin preparing the public for the worst.

The illusion that it is possible to purchase peace with appeasement or neutrality is always powerful in any war. The burden of self-defense is expensive and painful. The British preferred Chamberlain to Churchill in the late 1930s, while millions marched in Europe in 1982 against Ronald Reagan's deployment of nuclear missiles to deter the Soviet Union. Mr. Aznar has good historical company.

We also believe he will be vindicated by history just as those earlier leaders were. In a world of open borders, no democracy can protect itself from terror simply by declaring itself a non-combatant....

The rest of the article: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004825
 
I found it interesting that the news over here stated right away that this was the work of ETA. However if you look at the Modus Operandi of Al-Qaeda v. ETA, you have a pretty good idea of who did this.
My feeling over this was that somebody (Gov't) made a call and said whatever you say don't say Al-Qaeda. ETA, Basque, just don't say Al-Qaeda.
Now who are we to say that the current gov't in Spain would not have been voted out. It was said that 90% of the people of Spain opposed the Iraq war. I don't think that Spain is pathetic, hey guess what Democracy worked, people voted.

Another thing that I found culturally different was how Spain reacted to this. Sure grief and anger was part of it, but they went out to the streets, it was said somewhere that it was like 1 in every 7 people in Spain were protesting. It seems like we lock the doors and watch on tv. Just interesting if nothing else.

I posted this link about a year ago when we first got involved in the war, just reread it recently. Just to see if the author was right.
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/11/fallows.htm

Peace in the Middle East, Ha! not in our lifetime.
 
merikeyegro said:


I have to say that your response was the most thoughtful yet. I don't agree with some of it, but it was educated nonetheless.

Thanks and kudos.
 
Pathetic U.S.A.

Bully sovereign nations into participating in war.

Invade a sovereign nation based on faulty intelligence and trumped up accusations.

Occupy, subdue and corruption a sovereign nation.

Childessly insult and berate those sovereign nations which rightly objected to participate in a senseless war.

Force a form of government on a nation that hasn't the social, cultural or religious background to support it.

Pathetic U.S.A.
 
ATL2CDG,

You know....if I felt like that about the country that I lived in and I was just a sky waitress I'd pick myself up and move on outta there to somewhere I did like. But not you....you'll stay here and be a bug on the windshield of life for the rest of us.
 
why am I still paying $1.60 at the pump

It's called price fixing so big oil can get your money. And if you don't believe that why does the government keep dancing around this issue everytime it comes up?
 
The thing that is not being reported is that the election was predicted to be a close one even BEFORE the bombings. Aznar was predicted to win, but not by a landslide! Before the election the Popular Party (PP read: Aznar) had only a 4.5 percentage point lead over the opposition Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE). You have to remember...a whopping 90% of Spain's population was against the war from the beginning. That is in line with most countries in the WORLD.

The bombings just sent them over the edge. It was still a close vote. The Socialists won 42% of the vote while the centre-right Popular Party garnered 38%, according to official results.

So please educate yourselves a little bit before you start calling a long time ally like Spain "pathetic" and "cowardly" just because the people of that country have the same beliefs as over 80% of the rest of the world about Bush's one man war.

I can see it now….

ELECTION ’04….Kerry defeats Bush! The Terrorists have WON!
 
rumpletumbler:

'Sky waitress.' Ouch. I'm hurt. Let me go cry.

Trust me, if I had the means to escape this country, I would. However, with a wife and daughter, we have roots here that we can not yet dig up.

But don't you worry. In time, I will take my family and me out of this country and you can smoke, drink and war yourselfs into oblivion.

It's ashamed that Heavenly Father has ordained this nation to be the new Zion, but bigots, war-mongers and idolaters such as yourself have striped away all the glory this country once held.

TysV
 
ATL2CDG,

ahhhh your french. A spank boy on the Atlanta to Hairy Armpit run. The city sitting on human bones. Do we let the french in the USA since 9/11? I had no idea. A girlie man such as yourself has no business being a crewmember on an airplane post 9/11. You need to get a job in a flower shop or a bakery somewhere.
 
ATLdood

You sir are one sick puppy. :eek:
 
Ah, namecalling. Conservative speak for I-have-nothing-to-go-on-but-propaganda.

Do you guys actually have an argument or do you just call people French, Hitler-loving liberals and laugh at your own jokes? It's kinda comical.

You know, I spend a lot of time trying to dig up facts, articles, snippets here and there that might educate a few people that are drunk on the Kool-Aid. To what benefit? None. I get nothing but "America - Love it or Get the F*ck Out!"

Go vote for Bush and get on with it already. You'll still be out of work in 2008. You're employer, however, will be laughing all the way to the bank. Oh yeah, your union will be defunct, as well.

Hitler reigns again.
 
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ATL2CDG,

Actually, when it comes to smoking and drinking, your beloved France ranks right up there.

Seems to me, that you are subscribing to a bit of CDG revisionist history. The "glorious failures" of France would make most grown men cry with shame, the shady dealings perpetrated by the french goverment are a long list indeed. Seems like every single despot has had a friend in your beloved France.

The breathtaking defeat of France againts the british Navy.
The utter humilation foisted upon the French by the Germans during WW2 is a mark, that will never wash away. "Ahhh, but msr. Hitler, we will not fight, just give us wine and cheese and do with us as you wish." Then France got their butt handed to them in Indochine. But why stop there, how about avoiding conflict with Libya after the bombing of PanAm. The dealings with the Ayatollah of Iran, Saddam in Iraq, the N. Koreans. With the French goverment as friends, who the heck needs enemies.

But, do let us know when you leave for the proverbial Monday morning strike in France. The country who wishes to rule the world, but who since Napoleon has gone from defeat to defeat, with nothing to show for it but a faltering economy and a ego that knows no bounds, despite the fact, that the rest of the civilized world laughs at you.
 
God knows that I feel less safe today than I did BEFORE the war in Iraq, mainly because that joint is now a haven for terrorists, where it wasn't before.

Yeah, a haven for terrorists. I suppose you define haven as a place where heavy combat units hunt you night and day, where your brothers are being killed and detained at an alarming rate and slowly but surely the local populace is turning against you.

I feel much more safe knowing that most terrorists are striving to go fight the US in Afghanistan and Iraq. Rather than attack civilians here at home. It is much easier to send the misguided bastards to Allah there than it is here.

I know most of you think the way you handle a bully is to give them what they want and pray they go away. So move to Spain. Or France, they played the weasel, but are still threatened. Maybe they can elect a Mullah and make their women wear burkahs and the muslims will leave them alone...
 
Riddle me this: With the result of the terrorist bombing in Spain being a change in the ruling party & foreign policy sympathetic to their demands, will bombings against civilians by Al-Quada INCREASE or DECREASE?
 
031604.jpg
 
rumpletumbler:

Man, you're just full of clever rhetoric!

Actually, I'm American, born in Oak Ridge, TN and raised in East Tennessee... I haven't a drop of French blood in me. My handle comes from when I was dating a young Parisian lady and I was hopping across the pond monthly. I have since ended my relationship with her (due to distance, not politics) and married a beautiful lady from Fort Wayne, IN by way of Olathe, KS by way of San Ramon, CA with whom I have a lovely 15-month-old daughter.

'Girlie man'? 'Flower shop or bakery'? This 6'1', 225 lb. 'girlie man' welcomes you to spew your idiocy to my face and we'll just see how this 'spank boy' sets the record straight. Oh wait, you're unemployed so I doubt you could make it to Atlanta. Too bad.

Tim47SIP:

If we ever cross paths on the ATL ramp, I welcome your remedy, if you have one. If not, shut up and fly the bus.

merikeyegro:

Very well put.

TysV
 
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After that post, I am not even sure Chirac would want to be french:)

But he apparently does not have a problem with their politics. To each his own I guess.
 
Trust me, if I had the means to escape this country, I would. However, with a wife and daughter, we have roots here that we can not yet dig up.

But don't you worry. In time, I will take my family and me out of this country and you can smoke, drink and war yourselfs into oblivion.

Dont tease me.
 
All:

No country has no a perfect plan. No country has a perfect history. No country has a perfect leader. No country is perfect, period.

I respect and revere the U.S. Constitution. However, the Bush administration, as many conservation government of recent history, has made the government work for the wealth and businesses. The government exists to SERVE THE PEOPLE. Is government a do all, fix all, control all entity? Of course not. Does the government have a responsibility to provide for its citizens? Most definitely.

It frightens me that so many people believe that war, bigotry and strife are the only means of existence. Do I think that muslim extremists pose a threat to world peace? Most definitely. Do I think that christian extremists pose a similar threat? Ever heard of the crusades? Do I think democratizing the Middle East will solve our woes? Not in the least. Do I think continually flexing Americans unilateral muscles will earn the respect our government craves? No.

Do I have an answer? No. I'm not privy to the information that the Administration is. However, I know that the direction in which our country is currently being led is not a path that I nor millions of other Americans want to travel.

Despite my disagreement, I value and respect your opinions and views. I think that you're misinformed and misled, but I am far from perfect myself and I have much to learn. However, when peace, prosperity and my family's livelihood is at stake, I will stand firmly behind my beliefs and support those who feel as I do.

I love this country and the original ideas upon which it was founded. However, the America of today and that of 1789 are two different realities.

Patriotism is not defined by support for war. Patriotism is not defined by tax cuts and corporate subsidies. Patriotism is not defined by blind loyalty for the current government. Patriotism is not defined by an American flag sticker attached to the rear windshield of a gas-guzzling SUV.

Patriotism is defined by committment to the ideas which molded this nation. Patriotism is defined by respect of the law. Patriotism is defined by loyalty to the nation and government and not a man or his agenda.

Like or dislike what I say, I care not. I have my opinion and you have yours. This is the freedom about which this country is famed; this is the freedom that is slowly being chipped away by idealogues and radicals.

Okay, I've got to get into my uniform; it's about time to get out of OKC and head to DFW.

TysV
 
ALT2CDG,

After reading your last post I have the impression you're not leaving after all.

I have no respect for you.

That's MY opinion.

Mar,

Wherever you are, I'm with you. I want MY 50$ back. If you show me what my feet are for (been in jets too long) I'll buy you a beer.
 

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