Part 121-Supplemental Schedules

[CrewResearch]

Hi Everybody -

I wonder if someone here can help me with some information.

I'm a research psychologist, and for some time now, I've been doing research on the link between stress and health in aircrews. (Some of you may know me from other message boards, or may even have participated in one of my studies??)

A friend told me about this website, and it looks like it may be a good place to get some information I need. I'd like to have an idea of what the work schedules are like for pilots who work under FAR Part 121 supplemental. I'm not looking for info about duty period or flight time limitations, rest requirements, etc. I can read the FARs as well as the next guy -- and I have read them. What I need to know is how all that translates into day-to-day reality.

Where you work, what is your schedule? For example, is it "on-call" 7 days on/7 days off? Or??

And when you don't fly on a given day, is that considered to be a day off by your employer? I've heard stuff like that from pilots who fly corporate charters, i.e. under Part 135.

Why do I want to know? Well, given what I'm seeing in the survey data I've collected over the past year, freight pilots seem to have the highest levels of stress, overall -- and those who have told me that they work under Part 121 supplemental seem to be worse off than those who fly freight on a scheduled basis. I'm trying to figure out why that is so. I figure the best way to find out is to ask the source...

If you don't want to answer publicly, you can send me a PM or an email (see my public profile).

And, thanks very much. Happy landings.

 

[pilotyip]

read the regs again

You can not as a 121 pilot work 7 days in a row, you need a one in seven. So 7 on -7 off won't work.

 

[FN FAL]

Hi Everybody -

I wonder if someone here can help me with some information.

I'm a research psychologist, and for some time now, I've been doing research on the link between stress and health in aircrews. (Some of you may know me from other message boards, or may even have participated in one of my studies??)...

And when you don't fly on a given day, is that considered to be a day off by your employer? I've heard stuff like that from pilots who fly corporate charters, i.e. under Part 135.

Why do I want to know? Well, given what I'm seeing in the survey data I've collected over the past year, freight pilots seem to have the highest levels of stress, overall -- and those who have told me that they work under Part 121 supplemental seem to be worse off than those who fly freight on a scheduled basis. I'm trying to figure out why that is so. I figure the best way to find out is to ask the source...

It could be that supplemental pilots are suffering from a form of post traumatic stress disorder as a result of their previous flying jobs, such as flying in the corporate charter industry.

 

[nosewheel]

Where to start mmm... You can read the FAR's till your Blue so what's happening for real?...17 days On/ 12 Off. Our company's scheduling dept. can give crewmembers a 1 in 7 any old time they wish. Eg: anytime we have had a 24 hr. period in the hotel can be selected as a 1 in 7 or, we can have a 1 in 7 every day of the week if they choose at there convenience. If they have lost us, even though we are on call 24 hrs a day during that time can be concidered a 1 in 7.
Duty day starts one to two hours prior to departure and end's 15 minutes after block in. Crew rest begins 15 minutes after block to 1 hr prior to departure. If your going on Minimum rest ( 8 hrs.) that includes your travel time to the hotel, check in, eat, shower and then sleep until an hour before pick up, shower, eat (if you can), travel to the airport to arrive 1 hr. ( 2 hrs. International) prior to departure at the aircraft. In this case one may be lucky to get 5 hrs. sleep!
There are No duty restrictions for International flights. We can also do Part 91 tail end ferry flights after flying 12 hrs Int. or 8 hrs domestic. Its not unusual to block 19 hrs. in a 24 hour period when doing a tail end ferry. The list goes on but ,it appears that the FAR's are quite flexible with Part 121 Supplemental. It also appears that a crew of three and a hundred Tons of cargo are indispensable in the eyes of 121 Supplemental Carriers and the FAA. There's so much more to this but it's difficult to address the issue in breif.

 

[Thedude]

You can not as a 121 pilot work 7 days in a row, you need a one in seven. So 7 on -7 off won't work.

Re-read that reg again, I believe it say 24 hrs off in a 7 day period. That does not consitute a calender day. So you can do 7 on, 7 off you just need a 24 hr or greater overnight. Been there and done that many times.

 

[CrewResearch]

pilotyip - I have been told that a 7/7 "schedule" can go something like this and still be legal:

You're on call for seven days, then off for seven days -- meaning you're available to be called to work on any of seven days in a row; then you're not available for the next seven days. Since being "on call" isn't construed as "working", it's legal. Once you show up to fly, the block time kicks in, and that is when the clock starts ticking for fight time/duty period limitations.

Do I have this wrong? If so, please do correct me. I am trying to learn.

FN FAL -- I think you meant your answer as a joke -- but then again there's at least a grain of truth in what you said...

nosewheel -- thanks for your answer. I appreciate the information. This is the first time I've heard about those tail end ferry flights you mentioned. Thanks.

Your comments about crew rest time echo what I hear again and again and again. Not only is your transit time to and from the layover hotel, and the time to eat, etc. figured into that "rest" period -- it also assumes that you can just fall asleep on demand as soon as you hit the rack. I understand what you are saying. This is a sore spot with ALL crews, regardless of carrier type, and seems to be much worse in the post-9/11 world when carriers are trying to save money by scheduling for maximum allowed duty times, and minimum allowed crew rest time. Sounds dangerous to me..

 

[typhoonpilot]

It has been a few years, but I flew 121 Supplemental over a three year period from 1995 to 1998. Back then the biggest negative difference was the missing word in the regulation. That word was " consecutive ", as in 8 consecutive hours free of duty. What could happen, but thankfully didn't happen very often, was to break our 8 hours of rest into separate pieces throughout the day. Imagine getting up at 0430 to ferry down to LAX; fly a charter to the Grand Canyon; spend most of the afternoon at the canyon ( about 5 hours rest ) then fly back to LAX; ferry back to base; then start another trip at about 2000 ending after midnight. All legal because somewhere in there you could find enough hours off duty to make up 8 hours of rest, which need not be consecutive.

There were some real positives to the regs though. The biggest one was not being tied to the 30 in 7 rule. I remember it as 35 in 7 for us and that made it easy to have a 5 on 10 off schedule. Those five on we were on duty from about 1000 to 2000 and usually got in around 7 hours of block. That was sweet.


Typhoonpilot

 

[CrewResearch]

to thedude -- looks like you and I were replying at about the same time -- and thinking something similar about the 7 on/7 off thing


typhoon -- thanks for that! Omission of the word "consecutive" definitely leaves a loophole wide enough to fly through, sadly.

 

[nosewheel]

Crew Research, Being on Call is the same as working. You don't have to block any hours to be concidered On Duty. With that said, a crewmember must have 24 hrs off free of all duty in a 7 day period. Our schedulers get away with that crap all the time by saying we had 24 hrs off so we are legal to fly except, I do beleive this has to be agreed on by the crewmember in order to be legal. The only problem with this senario is that a crewmember that is on probation may not have a choice in the matter. He could however report this to the Fed's but as we all know his life would most likley change after that.

As for the crew rest, Your right!! we dont have ON/OFF switches which enable us to go to sleep at any time. Where I work we can travel around the world in 48 hrs with an intervening rest period half way around...12 hrs out of wack either side of the clock. Do we sleep well on these layovers? I don't think so. Is it safe ? No it's not!! Due to Not having an On/Off switch I have found myself on many occasions operating a flight after being up for 24-36 hrs. without sleep. My opinion, The fed's don't give a rats arse about Fatigue especially when it comes to 121 Supplemental rules.

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL -- I think you meant your answer as a joke -- but then again there's at least a grain of truth in what you said...

A joke with a grain of truth...can't ask for better than that! Good luck with your research Doc...I think there is a need for such a study. Although I don't work 121 supplemental, I have worked various shift-work jobs and on-demand charter...fatigue has it's price.

 

[CrewResearch]

At the end of the Stress Study questionnaire, there is a list of follow-up topics that were are thinking of pursuing. We ask survey participants to "vote" for which ones they think would be most interesting and/or appropriate for us to do. Right from the start, the number one vote-getter on the list has been "Aircrew fatigue and sleep problems."

I know it's a problem -- and it's a multi-faceted problem at that. And it's not well addressed by existing FARs (and maybe it can't be?). Some of the tales I hear make my hair stand on end.. especially from "freight dogs," probably because they do so much night flying to begin with. Then pile on the rest of the related problems... it's not a pretty picture.

P.S. to FN FAL - a joke with a grain of truth is the best kind indeed. That's when people can relate!

 

[TurboS7]

International Supplemental can run you to death. We have a union which set up minimum work rules which helps. Max 16 hour day and 8 hours in the hotel. I have no problem with the long duty day, it is easy to keep going when you are doing what you love to do. I have problems with 8.0 hours in the hotel, no matter how you cut it that comes to about 5.0 hours of sleep and then you are back crossing the North Atlantic again.

 

[CrewResearch]

Thanks for your reply, Turbo -- your sentiments are echoed in a couple of PMs I received on this topic from other people as well.

So tell me something folks -- do pilots flying under Part 121-supplemental really have the most trying and difficult schedules? (I mean, as an average, as a group.)

Are the 121-supplemental schedules really so much worse than the 135 schedules? Or is it impossible to say, across the board? (As in, it varies all over the map and just depends on the particular company -- or the times?)

I'm still trying to figure out why the 121-supplemental guys in my sample are the most stressed out.

Looks to me that they may be a bit older than the 135 guys (as a group -- there's a range, of course). But I'm not sure how that would make the difference.

Anybody care to wager a guess as to what's going on here? And, in general, why would freight pilots (any type) register more stress than those hauling freight of the self-loading variety? Can't all be due to more night flying, can it?

I'm listening...

 

[typhoonpilot]

I'm still trying to figure out why the 121-supplemental guys in my sample are the most stressed out.

I'll tell you what stressed me out the most about flying for a 121 Supplemental outfit. It was the fear of getting violated by the FAA. We ran things right up to the boundary of the most liberal interpretation of the FARs that you could think of. Living on the edge for that long just starts to wear on a person. That combined with the FAA being around every corner. I would literally have an FAA inspector on the aircraft once per week. That was equally shared by Ops, Maintenance, and Security branches. I was constantly being put on the spot by them. On one occasion I would have been involved in a violation had I uplifted fuel in Iowa because the FBO didn't have the proper approval to fuel us. The FAA had specifically flown up there in a Baron to watch us. Thank god I had fueled through.

Fortunately I saw the handwriting on the wall and got out before they had their certificate revoked. A few guys did end up with suspensions over it though.

What I don't understand after flying under European style rules for a couple of years now is why the FAA or the various pilot unions don't press for rules similar to CAP 371. They are so much more in tune with body rhythm and multiple sector fatigue issues than the FARs. You should have a look at those rules and compare them to Part 121, Part 135, and Part 121 Supplemental.

TP

 

[CrewResearch]

Typhoon -- sounds like you were in a "monkey-in-the-middle" position between the FAA and an employer who was stretching things to the limit. Given that they lost their certificate, sounds like they went beyond the limits.

I can see how all of that would be wearing over time.

So far, I have been focusing primarliy on the situation for crews working in the US. My study is open to anyone who can fill in the questionnaire in English, but approximately 70% of all the participants to date are from the US and/or working for an American carrier. Thus, most of the regulatory aspects I have been looking at are based in the FARs. I am just now getting around to looking at CAP and JAR related issues, and the like. I will look at CAP 371 as you suggest.

In general, I am hearing that -- in the "post-9/11" world -- with so many unemployed and underemployed pilots out there, some employers are really pressing the limits more than ever. Someone told me it's a like it or lump it situation, as in, "If you don't like it, then go ahead and quit. There are lots of pilots lined up to take your job if you don't want it."

 

[freightdogfred]

I flew 121 non-sked for 16 years, and I actually prefer it to the the 121 domestic rules I now fly under. The 30 hr/7 days makes it hard to get your time in, and supplemental has no 30/7 limit. If you commute, supplemental is the way to go. The flying's brutal, with long legs and tail-end ferries, but you can only go 120 hrs in 30 days, and 300 hrs in 90 days. The sooner you get your time in, the sooner you go home.

 

[CrewResearch]

Fred -- so during that time you were commuting, did you have a crash pad near your domicile and just stay there until you had racked up the desired hours, then go home?


Are freight pilots having a harder time j/s-ing these days? I know so many of the j/s rules have changes, even with the mainlines.

 

[nosewheel]

Jumpseating is a pain in the butt for me these days since 9-11. The biggest problem is there are No seats ( in the back ) anymore. We used to ride in the cockpit however most Capt's would put us in the cabin if seats were available. Now we can no longer ride up front and with the cutbacks,parked aircraft etc. most flights are full. Luckily, our company realised this problem and buys us tickets to work and back.

 

[CrewResearch]

Jumpseating is a pain in the butt for me these days since 9-11. The biggest problem is there are No seats ( in the back ) anymore. We used to ride in the cockpit however most Capt's would put us in the cabin if seats were available. Now we can no longer ride up front and with the cutbacks,parked aircraft etc. most flights are full. Luckily, our company realised this problem and buys us tickets to work and back.

Yes, I'm hearing this kind of thng a lot... even from a close family member of mine who is a Capt. with a mainline carrier. He commutes, and he's pretty senior -- but, like you say, the reduced flying schedules mean that the flights are often full -- so no cabin seats, and the j/s is "awarded" on a first-come-first-served basis these days, so seniority doesn't count for beans in that case. Sometimes he ends up leaving for work a couple of days early.

Commuting -- just like so many other aspects of the job -- ain't what it used to be!

 

[habubuaza]

I've been flying supplemental for a while now and the biggest problem is that there is no required rest except for 3 instances:

1) 24 hours off in 7 day period (free of all duty)
2) Intervening rest period if you want to be scheduled to fly a segment that will carry you over 8 hours of flight in a 24 hour period.
3) 16 hours of rest if you have gone over 8 hours in a 24 hour period either scheduled or due to circumstances beyond control of the company.

Yes that means that you can be on reserve for 144 consecutive hours. It sucks but supplemental gives airlines an inordinate amount of scheduling flexibility over the pilots. And I just described the domestic side. Hope this helps.

 

[TurboS7]

The weird thing about it especially in the outfit that I fly is that we all love it. We are all like a bunch of race horses, we all love to fly to that far off place and come back again. Most of what we do is supporting what is happening in the MidEast so we are all very much motivated. It really helps the pocketbook also which helps reduce stress on one hand. I would call the lack of sleep an immediate stress problem that can be aliviated by some quality sack time. Procedure, dicipline, good management backup help make things very safe. In my case I think that long term stress comes from financial problems, not having enough cash to do what you, problems with the kids or wife or whatever. These are long term problems that ususally have no quick answer, thus more stress. Security is a real pain too, lately the TSA has been really nasty.