Parachute Rigging

[cougar6903]

Anyone know how much the 120 day packing of a parachute costs on average? Clearly not something you want to skimp on. Just wondering how much it is for the emergency shutes used in gliders and aerobatic aircraft.

 

[FN FAL]

If you are a rigger, it costs nothing but time. Maybe some minor repairs will cost you materials.

I pay about 45 bucks every evolution to have my reserve repacked by someone I consider to be one of the best in the business.

Round reserves may be more or less...don't have one of those, so I don't know that.

 

[FracCapt]

Depends on your area and the specific rigger. My rigger packs my reserve for $35...and he is highly experienced, has been doing it for over 15 years, and has saved my butt 5 times already(his reserve packjobs saved me when they opened perfectly and quickly). He packs all types of rigs - sport rigs, pilot emergency rigs, tandem rigs, etc.. I know he charges $35 for sport and emer rigs. Other riggers in the area, some of whom I wouldn't trust to touch my gear much less pack my reserve, charge up to $70...so it really depends. Find a local drop zone(go to USPA.ORG and click on Drop Zones) and call them. Be sure to tell them what type of rig it is....it may make a difference.

I'd say a safe bet is $50-70, depending on the area and the rig.

 

[avbug]

I paid sixty five bucks a couple of weeks ago. I usually pay about forty-five dollars for a ram air repack (all my reserves are Raven II's).

A pilot emergency rig is usually comparable. Round reserves are typically no different.

The only time you'll have a more expensive rig will be pop-top reserves, such as a racer. That's typically an extra five or ten dollars, and most riggers would prefer not to do them at all.

 

[FN FAL]

Depends on your area and the specific rigger. My rigger packs my reserve for $35...and he is highly experienced, has been doing it for over 15 years, and has saved my butt 5 times already(his reserve packjobs saved me when they opened perfectly and quickly).

5 reserve rides? Some people are just lucky. The wife of our DZO has had more than her share, plus I know a guy at my last DZ that seemed to have quite a few as well. I have 500 jumps and consider my self lucky that I only have had two reserve rides...both self induced and both while using borowed student gear.

Funny thing about both those FXC activated reserve deployments, was they both occured with me getting into the saddle by 1,900 feet, even though these fine AAD's were set for 1,200.

The cypress I use now still bothers me below a 1,000...but maybe I worry too much.

 

[FracCapt]

5 reserve rides? Some people are just lucky. The wife of our DZO has had more than her share, plus I know a guy at my last DZ that seemed to have quite a few as well. I have 500 jumps and consider my self lucky that I only have had two reserve rides...both self induced and both while using borowed student gear.

Actually, just 5 saves by that rigger....a few more on top of that. I have an overall average of 1 cutaway per 250 jumps or so. When you jump small highly loaded crossbraced ellipticals, you take the chance of chopping it more often than larger, semi-elliptical or square canopies. I chopped one particular Stiletto a couple times(1.8WL, way too high for a Stiletto), a Velocity(2 diff ones actually) a few times(2.2 to 2.5WL). One of those was a borrowed rig that was packed by a new packer who didn't know what NOT to do with a Velo...and it balled up on itself immediately. With the nose pushed way back in the packjob, the end cells opened up flying foward, and the center cell opened up flying backwards....and...well..I'm sure you can imagine how fast it goes to hell. I packed two of my cutaways, all others were done by packers. It's a necessary evil when you are working and doing back to backs. I just jump for fun now, so I pack my own rig every time. I don't know for sure if those cutaways were packer induced, poor body position, or any number of other things...so I don't blame anybody but myself for them. Plus, now I'm jumping a Xaos...IMO, the most stable, nicest opening crossbraced elliptical yet made. I also had a couple chops from wraps during CReW. I had no probs my first 500+ jumps...then the canopy choices I made started smackin me upside the head.

The cypress I use now still bothers me below a 1,000...but maybe I worry too much.

I have seen two Cypres misfires. One was on a tandem rig as we were passing through 7500'. They are set to fire at 1750' or so. I was flying on my back, just underneath the tandem, and had presented my foot to the student...who grabbed it...and I started to spin them(all pre-arranged with the TM and done often for good video). After about 1.5 rotations, I saw the reserve PC launch...just barely clear the drogue...and then out comes the reserve. Of course, first thing on my mind was...."How did we get so low so quick?!". I knew we couldn't be under 2,000', and that was confirmed as soon as I rolled over and looked at the ground.

The second misfire was while the rig was sitting in a table. A few of us were standing there talking, and heard a pop and a reserve PC goes zippin in front of us. This was back when the RF shields were first introduced because they were having problems with radios and cell phones setting the Cypres off on the ground, and this one had a shield...plus there was nobody within 100'(nor anywhere around we could see) using a cell phone, radio, or anything else that would transmit a signal.

I've seen Cypres do their job many, many times, too. I always recommend to students to get a Cypres in their first rig...and once they have 300-500 jumps they have been around long enough to know whether it's a good or bad thing for them. I've seen a couple of no-pulls(both after cutaways) that a Cypres would have saved them. I have never seen anybody die from a Cypres fire...though, I think it has happened once. Low pull, Cypres fire, main/reserve entanglement.

 

[avbug]

I grew up with much older types of automatic activation devices, both on my back on on chest mount reserves. Activations then were much more common. Never cared for them. I don't have one on today, on either of my rigs (both "old man" rigs by your highly loaded eliptical standards...I don't exceed 1.0 fer anything).

Year before last, I had a reserve ride following a stuck pilot chute that I ended up taking low. Not low enough for a cypress activation; I was under a good canopy by 1,500. However, it occured during a moment of complacency, and left me thinking. I left a two way and did a couple of turns, a couple of rolls, and tracked. All quickly, but burning altitude I didn't need to, and then reached for the pud.

When it didn't extract per normal, I took a firmer grip, and gave it one more shot. I gave it a hard shot, and rolled over while pulling on it. I had just finished reading an article in Parachutist that reviewed the number of cases of people going in while tugging on webbing and other stupid mistakes, and had a very clear image of me fitting into that category. I let go of the pud and arched, looked up, and saw the ground, and knew I was a lot lower than I wanted to be. I pulled the reserve and got a fairly quick deployment.

Long story, but the point is that it did set me to thinking quite a bit about finally putting in a cypress. I got the installation kit...but haven't worked up the gumption to put in the cypress. Even after all these years and all the high praise for them...I still have images of the AAD going off in the airplane or in the door, or while doing something other than belly flying. Makes me nervous.

 

[FracCapt]

Long story, but the point is that it did set me to thinking quite a bit about finally putting in a cypress. I got the installation kit...but haven't worked up the gumption to put in the cypress. Even after all these years and all the high praise for them...I still have images of the AAD going off in the airplane or in the door, or while doing something other than belly flying. Makes me nervous.

Just put the thing in. Don't worry about it - Cypres misfires are few and far between these days(since the RF shields especially). If you have an Expert model, you don't have to worry about it going off in the plane. The only ones I've ever heard of going off in the plane was student models when a pilot was hot doggin it on the descent with students onboard(for whatever reason)...and blow through 1,000' with a descent rate in excess of 29mph(I think that's the student Cypres fire speed). Not hard to do in an Otter. It takes roughly 7,000fpm descent through 1,000' to make an Expert model fire. Well below freefall speeds, but well above any aircraft descent rate at 1,000'(assuming the airplane isn't spiraling down with only one wing attached).

Having a Cypres fire ANYTIME would suck....but especially if freeflying...which is probably 75% of my skydiving. If I happen to be in freefall at 1,000'(it makes the decision at about 1,000', fires about 750'), I'm going to be happy the Cypres fired(if my reserve holds up). I've had a terminal reserve opening....that was extremely hard....I can only imagine what it would be like if flying head down or sit/stand. The bottom line is that I feel the benefits far outweigh the limited risks for the type of skydiving I do. All my freefall rigs have had Cypres - CReW rigs do not.

 

[FN FAL]

Wow...interesting stories guys. Reading them, I could almost feel as if I was there...or at least watching the video.

We Just had an experienced jumper who was working on his tandem rating experience a real cypress fire. He had a licensed jumper in the student harness and for some reason he locked up and I believe (i'll get the details from the guys when I see them this sunday) he never got the drouge out. He may have tugged on the release handle first? But anyway, he got brain locked after things didn't go his way and wound up going through the tandem cypress altitude thinking about it.

I hear what you are saying Fracapt about the high performance and elipticals...seems the ratio of reserve rides is high where our video flyers is concerened and that is what they are jumping.

I own a vector with with a raider 225 in it. It's been my friend for many years, but it is ragged out and giving me hard landings. So I rent the DZ's 170 sabre with RSL and Cypress. It has micro lines, collapsable pilot chute and slider. For me this is quite the rig to use, as the performance increase is enough to keep me happy, but not enough to get me into trouble.

One of my best friends used to jump an old 7 cell and he got quite a few malfo's with this canopy. Said the "reefing" system was a design flaw and that the company had discontinued it's production.

The last malfo he had with it, he was filming a tandem and when he landed under the reserve you hear him in the video say..."co<k sucker!". The video become the renowned "co<k sucker" addition to that years DZ blooper video.

Fun chatting with both you and Avbug...have a great and safe weekend!

 

[Snakum]

You know what they say ... bird-sh!t and fools. Bird-sh!t and fools.



Minh
(Former 'Leg' Infantryman who did a static-line jump once when young and stupid ... and swore never to do so again ... after he got clean underwear.)

 

[FN FAL]

You know what they say ... bird-sh!t and fools. Bird-sh!t and fools.



Minh
(Former 'Leg' Infantryman who did a static-line jump once when young and stupid ... and swore never to do so again ... after he got clean underwear.)

Hahahaha! Skydivers know why birds sing...because they don't have to pack!

Also...did you know how to tell if your parachute rigger is gay?



Easy...every time you see him, he's packing some guys chute!

 

[FracCapt]

We Just had an experienced jumper who was working on his tandem rating experience a real cypress fire. He had a licensed jumper in the student harness and for some reason he locked up and I believe (i'll get the details from the guys when I see them this sunday) he never got the drouge out. He may have tugged on the release handle first? But anyway, he got brain locked after things didn't go his way and wound up going through the tandem cypress altitude thinking about it.

Never got the drogue out? OUCH. Tandem terminal reserve deployment....never experienced one, but saw one up close and personal(while flying video for the tandem) - and the TM was in pain for days. About 3 seconds after exit, he went to throw the drogue....but in the tight quarters of the Porter the handle got pushed into the pouch(it's basically a big BOC pouch with a plastic handle on the drogue, like a pilot chute). We exited at 13,500 - so he decided to play with it for a while. I was on my head, going almost as fast as I possibly could just to keep up. Finally, around 7,000 he decided he wasn't going to get it - and went for the reserve. I cringed when I saw him reach for that handle - knowing a reserve opening at 200mph was going to hurt. Of course, tandem reserves are designed for such openings..but they're still very fast and hard.

Pulling the release handle first will not cause a mal. All that will happen is when the drogue is thrown out, the main will deploy immediately - the drogue acting as just a big PC. When a couple friends of mine were doing a tandem course, I offered to fly video for them for a jump. They were at the stage where two TM candidates go up together....so both of the guys on this tandem were good friends. I told them to be SURE to throw the drogue within 3 seconds or else I wouldn't be able to keep up in my baggy freefly suit. Just before exit, I distracted 'em both for a second, and pulled the drogue release. About 3 seconds after exit, he threw the drogue....and...BAM! Main canopy....at 10,000'. You could hear me laughing on the video for a good 3,000' or so.

[/quote]It has micro lines, collapsable pilot chute and slider. For me this is quite the rig to use, as the performance increase is enough to keep me happy, but not enough to get me into trouble.[/quote]
If you keep that attitude, you'll do well in this sport. I was one of those guys that downsized too quickly, much of the time being egged on by some of the local instructors. They thought that since I was a pilot, I could handle just about any canopy..."since he know's aerodynamics, it won't be a problem"...Looking back, I'm lucky I survived some of the things I did. I broke a leg once when a steering line broke just as I was planing out after a hook turn...if I had been on a larger canopy, I would have had more time to get on the rear risers to save my butt. I'm lucky that's the only injury I've suffered as a result of stupidity.

 

[avbug]

It's been nearly twenty years for me, and I still haven't downsized.

I'm still in no hurry to go for the cypress. I didn't like AOD's (now AAD's) on belly reserves. I didn't like them when static lining T-10's (we had them on some systems). I didn't like them when jumping PC's. I don't like them for reserves. They have merits, but I still don't like them.

My rigs are a little older, a little dated, and comfortable. My parapack Vector II with velcro riser covers, that still has ROL on both right and left as well as my own BOC is flat out comfy, even under a nice big F-111 seven or nine cell. I sold my Pegasus not long ago, toyed with getting another cloud again, and am happy with a maverick or a PD-190. In fact, the PD-190 is plenty fast for me, and the Raven II reserve each rig has is as small as I'm going to go. Neither rig even sports a kill line pilot chute.

I've never had a subterminal reserve ride, either round or square. All well into terminal. The 26' navy conical hurt.

The most painful one involved a failure to use the reserve (round reserve in high winds in very steep canyon terrain with a lot of large cactus awaiting below, and bad mountain rotors waiting to have a ball with that little round canopy). I paid for it dearly, and had ample time in intensive care to contemplate my acts, so I view it as a learning experience.

There is no such thing as a perfectly good airplane.

 

[Snakum]

There is no such thing as a perfectly good airplane.

You must have been reading my mind.

Although ... having turned 41 a couple days ago, I find myself fascinated by this thread and I am noticing a growing itch to try it again, most likely in subconscious response to mid-life angst.

Perhaps I just need to be b!tch-slapped back into Logical Land. If a cat has nine lives, I got those suckers beat already. Methinks I shouldn't push my luck.

Minh

 

[FN FAL]

You must have been reading my mind.

Although ... having turned 41 a couple days ago, I find myself fascinated by this thread and I am noticing a growing itch to try it again, most likely in subconscious response to mid-life angst.

Perhaps I just need to be b!tch-slapped back into Logical Land. If a cat has nine lives, I got those suckers beat already. Methinks I shouldn't push my luck.

Minh

You might as well go on down and give another try, life is too short!

 

[FN FAL]

Never got the drogue out? OUCH. Tandem terminal reserve deployment....never experienced one, but saw one up close and personal(while flying video for the tandem) - and the TM was in pain for days.

Yea...that's about what this sounded like. I went to dinner with this guy a week or so after the incident, sounds like his ego was hurting more than reserve opening. I don't know if he pursued the additional training after this or not, as I haven't been out to the DZ all month.

As far as being conservative with canopies, I never had a problem with that concept, for me it was just good policy. I know some really good hook turners and swoopers and I have no desire to learn this skill. Be careful out there!

 

[EagleRJ]

Anyone know how much the 120 day packing of a parachute costs on average? Clearly not something you want to skimp on. Just wondering how much it is for the emergency shutes used in gliders and aerobatic aircraft.

Isn't it 120 days for silk and 180 for synthetic canopies? I think those are the rules for emergency chutes. I don't know if they are the same for reserves.

Also, anyone know if emergency chutes are protected against perspiration? I've always wondered if the time will come for me to go for a walk, and I'm going to streamer because I've been sweating into the chute for several months.

 

[FracCapt]

Isn't it 120 days for silk and 180 for synthetic canopies? I think those are the rules for emergency chutes. I don't know if they are the same for reserves.

Also, anyone know if emergency chutes are protected against perspiration? I've always wondered if the time will come for me to go for a walk, and I'm going to streamer because I've been sweating into the chute for several months.

No, it's 60 days for any canopy that contains silk, pongee, or "other natural fibers"....and 120 days for parachutes built completely from nylon, rayon, and other synthetic fibers.

As for the perspriration...don't worry about it. If you sweat, the rig soaks it up....not the canopy. The canopy is protected. The USPA is currently pushing for a 180 day repack cycle, but it's not likely to happen anytime soon....thanks to the Feds and their BS ideas...

A couple of years ago, some friends and I took a rig that had been sitting in a closet for 10 years(in Florida, very humid) and put an expired AAD(automatic activation device) in it. We hung some weights from the leg straps, and threw it out. The AAD fired(even though it was "expired" and "no longer useful") and the reserve(which, according to the FAA, won't work after 120 days) deployed perfectly.

If you ever have to use an emergency rig, your biggest problem is getting out of the airplane....then your second biggest problem is remembering to pull that silver handle...after that, it's all taken care of...

 

[Snakum]

I called the only two places within driving distance on someone else's behalf a few months ago (Carolina Sky Sports and some place in southern VA.) and no one would do a static-line jump. They offered tandem only, and I ain't doin' that $hit. So I guess they made the decision for me.

Still I was kinda interested. When I did the static-line thingee years ago I froze and wouldn't move to the door (I'm deathly afraid of heights, I cringe and look away when I see people standing on ledges on TV ), till some guys with me started calling me a pu$$y since I was going to 'ride' down. I guess my ego ran deeper than my common sense.

It'd be cool to find out if I'm any braver than I was twenty years ago while in Uncle Sam's Hunt Club. Probably not ... I don't drink anymore.

Minh

 

[avbug]

Snakum,

Try an accelerated freefall. You have your own rig, and you are in freefall right away. Depending on the DZ doing the job, one or more typically, two jumpmasters go out the door with you. You have coaching on the way down, and you'll probably find it's a whole lot more in line with your needs.

You're safer than going out the door static line, you have more time to deal with a malfunction, and you have expert asistance right there with you all the way down. The cost will be about the same as a tandem jump; it's loggabe toward completing a student course of instruction, and it's rewarding. I wish it had been available when I started jumping.