Pagan, Wiccan, Druid worship area at USAFA

[ackattacker]

shagadelic, I hate to hit a raw nerve here but it seems that you really got a dog in this hunt. For as much energy you put into converting people into believing in nothing, truly if you believed in nothing, you could care less what other people thought.

Everyone has a "dog in this hunt" as you put it. Religion and belief is not just an internal thought process, it has very real repercussions in the actual world. Or would you not care if the USA became a Muslim state? Most religions are in their very nature non-inclusive. When you possess the One True Faith then everybody else is lesser than you, poor misguided souls who need some firm guidance. Talk about "private faith" all you want but what it comes down to, is it's just talk. Give the Mormons/Muslims/Baptists whoever majority control and they'll institute their own laws and social standards and force them on you. That's a fact.

So if you believe in living a life of freedom, free to think and act rationally, then it's important to speak up for yourself and not just sit quietly and hope nobody will notice you.

Beyond that, if you are an intelligent person fond of rational thought then you appreciate honest debate. If you're a crazy ideologue, then you can't tolerate a single voice of dissent.

 

[SIG600]

My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend! I kill you!

 

[Paris]

If you are too lazy to read the full old testament, I'd recommend Good Book. Its the cliff notes version of the Old Testament. It contains everything you won't hear on Sunday. If you think a god worthy of worship is probable after reading what the bible really says, good luck.

 

[mitsdriver]

Mits, I would like to ask who these people are, or what organizations they belong to.

Well, those people are ones who seem to spend most of their free time on the quest to oust everything from Christmas decorations to Star of David earrings to rearview mirror ornaments in shape of a cross to yes, the bible itself from society. What started as an effort to remove religious articles from some government institutions (which I have no problem with since I support the seperation of church and state) have now in some cases degenerated into what amounts to religious persecution of private citizens. I agree with you that those folks are in the minority but from what I've seen, such individuals do exist in numbers.

As for the question of how to seperate the truth from the stories in the bible, I guess there are no easy answers to that. It seems us mortals are left to our own devices to interprete the bible and seek its true meaning. Perhaps that's why it's called FAITH or BELIEF. If God showed Himself and made it clear in plain language as to exactly what the truth is and what isn't, there wouldn't be a need for anyone to have a faith. Maybe this is God's way of challenging the mankind and putting us to a task...

Anyway, I appreciate the open mind and the civilized discussion from you.

 

[psmd0311]

I think you will find that the majority of atheists don't care what you believe in. You can dress your garden up with as many Santa claus lighted figures as you want. Its your property do what you want. Most of the complaints that you mention come from other religious organizations that feel that they are being discriminated against.

Just keep religion out of schools and government, and I dont want to see my tax’s going to pay for a christmas tree in a town centre along with any other religious decoration. You can have as many religious channels on TV as you want as long as I am not paying for them and I can click to the next channel. I think religion is full of lies and hypocrisy and I hope it goes away, but people can believe in what they want. I wont force my beliefs down peoples throats and go on atheist missionary trips all over the world to convince people there is no god. But I will not hold back my thoughts when religion is being discussed, there seems to be an unwritten rule that you cant criticizes someones faith. I see it as fair game just like any other topic.

 

[shagadelic]

I think you will find that the majority of atheists don't care what you believe in. You can dress your garden up with as many Santa claus lighted figures as you want. Its your property do what you want. Most of the complaints that you mention come from other religious organizations that feel that they are being discriminated against.

Just keep religion out of schools and government, and I dont want to see my tax’s going to pay for a christmas tree in a town centre along with any other religious decoration. You can have as many religious channels on TV as you want as long as I am not paying for them and I can click to the next channel. I think religion is full of lies and hypocrisy and I hope it goes away, but people can believe in what they want. I wont force my beliefs down peoples throats and go on atheist missionary trips all over the world to convince people there is no god. But I will not hold back my thoughts when religion is being discussed, there seems to be an unwritten rule that you cant criticizes someones faith. I see it as fair game just like any other topic.

Exactly....We've been quiet too long. Well said.

 

[waka]

The only thing fringe here is your fringe opinions about history. I see you are back again posting the same misinformation. I will remind you...again, Judaism predates the religions you cited last time, and Christianity predates both Islam and Hinduism. Second point Constantine did not declare Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. I am not even sure what Roman Empire you are speaking of since there were two during much of Constantine's reign as Emperor. I find no evidence he declared Christianity the official religion of the Eastern or Western Empire. Try again to make a relevant point based perhaps in some historical fact or evidence.

No AirCobra, you didn't prove anything the first time and you have yet to prove your dogmatic and emotionally influenced version of history. Sorry pal, most of what Judaism revolves around is not original....I have already shown that.

You see no evidence of Constantine's declarations? Ok, I can see how YOU would say that. Legitimization Under Constantine

No matter how much you try to obfuscate history, it doesn't change the facts. I guess I don't really blame you as you're clearly brainwashed with the glory of YOUR god. I know how it is, I am a former Christian.


Bonus Link!
Wrap the small part of your brain that you have left to rational thought around this;

http://lukeprog.com/religion/gods.html

 

[AirCobra]

No AirCobra, you didn't prove anything the first time and you have yet to prove your dogmatic and emotionally influenced version of history. Sorry pal, most of what Judaism revolves around is not original....I have already shown that.

You see no evidence of Constantine's declarations? Ok, I can see how YOU would say that. Legitimization Under Constantine

No matter how much you try to obfuscate history, it doesn't change the facts. I guess I don't really blame you as you're clearly brainwashed with the glory of YOUR god. I know how it is, I am a former Christian.


Bonus Link!
Wrap the small part of your brain that you have left to rational thought around this;

http://lukeprog.com/religion/gods.html

Constantine ended persecution of Christians and promoted religious tolerance for Christians through the Edict of Milan. Are you saying perhaps it would have been better if he continued the Roman practice of killing Christians? Constantine kept the Roman temples and gods and took part in festivals celebrating Roman gods, the link you provided comments he was likely not a Christian.

The assertion was Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome. Saying Constantine legitimized Christianity is very different than saying he proclaimed it the official religion of Rome.

If you were a Christian what do you think was Christ's central message? How does His message differ from the way modern Christians act?

 

[AirCobra]

Everyone has a "dog in this hunt" as you put it. Religion and belief is not just an internal thought process, it has very real repercussions in the actual world. Or would you not care if the USA became a Muslim state? Most religions are in their very nature non-inclusive. When you possess the One True Faith then everybody else is lesser than you, poor misguided souls who need some firm guidance. Talk about "private faith" all you want but what it comes down to, is it's just talk. Give the Mormons/Muslims/Baptists whoever majority control and they'll institute their own laws and social standards and force them on you. That's a fact.

So if you believe in living a life of freedom, free to think and act rationally, then it's important to speak up for yourself and not just sit quietly and hope nobody will notice you.

Beyond that, if you are an intelligent person fond of rational thought then you appreciate honest debate. If you're a crazy ideologue, then you can't tolerate a single voice of dissent.

The problem is when you lump the tennants of Christianity as the FF's used them in creating our government with every other religion. They used Judeo-Christian principle because it focused on freedom and equality. The problem lies with your inability to seperate Judeo-Christian philosophy form demoninational Christian religion. Reading about China will not make me Chinese anymore than reading the Bible will make me a Jew or a Christian. When in a historical context Judeo-Christian principle serves as a foundational philosophy for our laws and govenrment, how can you thus seperate it from our government? How can you give insight into what words like liberty and freedom meant to the FF's if you can't cite the primary basis of their philosophy?

All I see here is fear and paranoia from you guys devoid of any historical fact. The Bible was used in public schools to teach civics up until the 1930's. Was the United States a religious, theocracy back then? Just the opposite, it was arguably the most religiously tolerant nation in the world. So how does your contention hold any water? How about this, if the philosophies behind Judaism and Islam are the same, and any religious based theocray is what we must be fearful of (Muslim, Jew Mormon, Baptist), why aren't Israel and Iran the same?

 

[ackattacker]

The problem is when you lump the tennants of Christianity as the FF's used them in creating our government with every other religion. They used Judeo-Christian principle because it focused on freedom and equality. The problem lies with your inability to seperate Judeo-Christian philosophy form demoninational Christian religion. Reading about China will not make me Chinese anymore than reading the Bible will make me a Jew or a Christian. When in a historical context Judeo-Christian principle serves as a foundational philosophy for our laws and govenrment, how can you thus seperate it from our government? How can you give insight into what words like liberty and freedom meant to the FF's if you can't cite the primary basis of their philosophy?

All I see here is fear and paranoia from you guys devoid of any historical fact. The Bible was used in public schools to teach civics up until the 1930's. Was the United States a religious, theocracy back then? Just the opposite, it was arguably the most religiously tolerant nation in the world. So how does your contention hold any water? How about this, if the philosophies behind Judaism and Islam are the same, and any religious based theocray is what we must be fearful of (Muslim, Jew Mormon, Baptist), why aren't Israel and Iran the same?

That is the biggest load of horse pucky I've seen in a while. I don't even know where to start. To begin with, you put a whole hell of a lot of words in my mouth and I don't appreciate it.

First, this nation was not founded on any "biblical", "judeo-christian" principles. Show me a passage in the bible that talks about democracy, freedom, or equality. If anything, the founding fathers looked to the ancient Greeks and Romans and there you can find most of the guiding philosophy behind our Republic.

Your argument goes something like this: The Founding Fathers were Christian. Therefore the Constitution is a Christian document. Therefore our government is Christian.

Ignoring the fact that there is not a single reference to God or any biblical, Christian tenent in the Consistution at all. And that one of the bedrock goals of the FF was to establish freedom of religion. It was so important that it was essentially the ONLY right outlined in the original Constitution (prior to the Bill of Rights)... the "no religious test" clause.

it is true that a substantial philosphical basis of our judicial system is evolved from a long European tradition dating back at least to Thomas Aquinas and his theories of Natural Law and moving through many generations and governments. And naturally those people were at least nominally Christians (as was every European back then, on pain of death). Nevertheless the ideas themselves are not Christian nor contained in the bible. Even Thomas Aquinas borrowed very heavily from Aristotle.