Pagan, Wiccan, Druid worship area at USAFA

[LowlyPropCapt]

Wow... I disappear to take care of some family health issues for a couple weeks and the conversation is still going strong! Outstanding!

I am not sure where to dive in here since there is so much stuff that has been said since I was last here, but it would seem Shag is still on this "evolution disproves God" kick. Shag, what makes you think that the Bible is a science book? It is salvation history, not honors biology. Can we at least agree on that?

When your kids were little and they asked where babies came from, did you give them all the biological details or did you make things a little more age appropriate? So it is with the Bible. The mechanisms of creation are unimportant to the premise of the Bible, which is: God exists. God loves. God saves. Would the point not have been lost if the exact chemistry had been recorded? Remember we are asked to accept God by faith through our own free will. Would an exact timeline with the formulas and mechanics not dictate against accepting God through our free will? I would contend that it would and that would not make us human, but automatons incapable of love. But then again, love is a purely biological and evolutionary phenomenon and completely without meaning, according to you. I am still waiting to match wits with you on the NT, by the way. I am teaching Acts and Romans this week so the material is rather fresh in my mind.

Nado, I recall asking for your thoughts, so thanks for your candor. Again, I must try and remind you (as I reminded Shag) to differentiate between religion and faith. Remember, religion is a HUMAN construct whose purpose is the corporate worship of the divine. We all agree (albeit for different reasons) that humans are fallible and the human institution of religion is no different. Faith is entirely a different matter. When you use religion as an argument against God all you do is kill the messenger... Fallible and sometimes outright wrong he may be. To be intellectual honest, you must disengage human actions from the equation and consider without human bias the evidence for and against God and what His nature might be.

People do and have done all sorts of evil in His name. But since we are creatures of free will, does that really dictate against his existence? Or is it merely possible we have used His name to further our own narrow earthly goals?

As for the 10 Commandments, you might be right but for one important point. The first four commandments have nothing to do with keeping things in line or giving society reasonable rules to follow. They deal only with the sanctity of the one God. This was unique in that area of the world at this point in history (monotheism). Isn't it more likely that if the Hebrew people's leaders wanted organized rules they simply would have borrowed from the pantheon of gods in surrounding cultures? Why were these people so absolutely unique?

I have enjoyed everyone's input! Keep it up!

 

[mitsdriver]

For many, this seems to be the prevailing theme:

"I have not seen it. Therefore it does not exist."

Science goes only as far as current human knowledge and understanding, which is quite limited and incomplete in the grand scale of things. To think that we got everything figured out based solely on our current knowledge would be quite ignorant and arrogant in my humble opinion. There are many things on Earth and in universe which the human science has yet to fully explain or comprehend. Who knows what (or who) is out there? And who's to say that in the future, perhaps in hundreds or thousands of years, we won't discover something that invalidates every scientific law and theory known to man and force us to start from scratch and rethink everything?

Does God exist? Personally, I think so. Can we scientifically prove it? Of course not. Does that mean He doesn't exist for sure? You decide.

Call me naive. But my belief is that the Earth, the life on it, and the universe is just too refined, balanced, and complex to have come into existance simply by some accident or random event. Just my 02 cents.

 

[psmd0311]

When your kids were little and they asked where babies came from, did you give them all the biological details or did you make things a little more age appropriate? So it is with the Bible.

Most Kids get told a stork delivers babies through the bedroom window, but as we get older and less naive/gullible we grow out of these stories and learn the truth.

 

[AirCobra]

Most Kids get told a stork delivers babies through the bedroom window, but as we get older and less naive/gullible we grow out of these stories and learn the truth.

I seem to find the older people get the more versions of truth they create to satisfy their own needs.

 

[Basil]

If it's proof you want...

Behold, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfqht0LEOWQ

 

[shagadelic]

It is salvation history, not honors biology. Can we at least agree on that?

We can, but a large percentage of your pew mates can not. They see it as the literal word of god.

They literally think that 6,000 years ago God made the first man out of dust - not even mud - and the first woman out of a bone; that God cursed the whole human race because a snake made the woman eat an apple; that God had a son by another man's wife, and that he had this son murdered in order to keep himself from sending all the human race to hell.

This son taught that any man who did not believe that piece of ignorance would go to hell and burn eternally in fire and brimstone.

So no, it's not a science book, and the entire idea of it is not compatible with science. If you want to believe in the magic, great. I don't have a problem with it. Keep it out of science class, and out of government, and I'll STFU. The problem is you've got your fundie nut jobs who won't stop until a bible is in every classroom.

So for that reason, when a christian cadet puts a cross in a wiccan holy site at USAFA, I will stand up and remind people that the wiccan site is just as valid (or non-valid) as the chapel, or the synagogue, or the mosque. They are all equal, you just happen to have been raised in one that your parents were raised in. Period.

Basil, very funny. Thanks!

 

[psmd0311]

Propcapt,

I am trying to understand christian beliefs, do you believe everything in the bible? That noah put every animal in the world on a boat and sailed away? The earth was made in seven days and man was walking around. Where do dinosaurs fit in with all of this? Was Adam walking around with them? If you believe in the bible surely you have to take it word for word as being correct or does it not work that way?

I think most non believers agree that people can worship and believe anything they want, just keep it out of the schools and politics. Its scary when world leaders are turning to their faith for answers.

 

[mitsdriver]

The problem is you've got your fundie nut jobs who won't stop until a bible is in every classroom.

Well, unfortunately, that goes both ways. There are also equal number of nut jobs who won't stop until every bible is destroyed.

I do agree with your stance on the said USAFA cadet. No one should repress or ridicule others' faith (or non-faith) just because it is different from his/her beliefs.

Won't the world be a much better place if everyone just minded their own faith and didn't care what the person next to them believes in?

I believe Jesus taught us to spread His message. However I don't believe that He said anything about FORCING His message upon others. It is up to each individual's free will whether to accept or reject Him after hearing His message.

I am a Christian but have many friends who are not. We don't let our differences in beliefs to come between us. We rarely talk about our faiths and certainly do not attemt to "convert" each other. Frankly, I don't get all worked up about what others believe in, whether it be God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Buddah, Confucius, Zeus, Eywa, Undertaker, sea people, or none.

 

[mitsdriver]

Propcapt,

I am trying to understand christian beliefs, do you believe everything in the bible? That noah put every animal in the world on a boat and sailed away? The earth was made in seven days and man was walking around. Where do dinosaurs fit in with all of this? Was Adam walking around with them? If you believe in the bible surely you have to take it word for word as being correct or does it not work that way?

I think most non believers agree that people can worship and believe anything they want, just keep it out of the schools and politics. Its scary when world leaders are turning to their faith for answers.

I don't think the Bible is meant to be interpreted literally. As someone already mentioned, that 7 days does not necessarily mean 7 Earth days.

When you read about how God took one of Adam's bones and created Eve from it, could it possibly mean that God took the DNA sample from Adam and modified it to create Eve? In other words, could Eve have evolved from Adam? Or something along those lines?

I believe the evolution takes place. However I also believe that God is the driving force behind it. Someone earlier have said that the DNA is like a computer program. In that case, I believe that God is the programmer.

 

[shagadelic]

There are also equal number of nut jobs who won't stop until every bible is destroyed.

Mits, I would like to ask who these people are, or what organizations they belong to. I'm a pretty strong atheist and would never advocate such a position, nor have I ever heard an atheist/agnostic/humanist ever take such a position. I'm sure there are those out there, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find them. Meanwhile, I can cite all day long people wanting to create a Christian nation to the exclusion of others.

I like a lot of your other points, and in fact I used to reconcile a lot of things in the bible the same way by saying they were not literal but just simplistic explanations given to those who wouldn't understand otherwise. The problem then becomes, what in the bible is real, and what are just simplistic stories? That's the problem I see Christians having, they can 1) believe everything in the bible is the inerrant word of god, which puts you in the preposterous position of believing in a flood that covered the earth and the Earth is 6000 years old earth garbage, etc etc or 2) it's a collection of stories designed to teach you a greater truth, but is not necessarily how it actually happened, as it is dumbed down for the masses. Number 1 is not really an option, except for the loonies, but number 2 leaves you wondering what exactly is real, and what are just the stories? How do we know? If the book is just a bunch of stories that we have no idea of knowing what's true and what is not, then what's the point of it in the first place? That doesn't even account for the fact that the bible is just one out of thousands of texts that supposedly contain the word of "god". We sometimes get arrogant and forget this is not the only myth based text out there....there are plenty more out there equally as fallacious.

 

[ackattacker]

shagadelic, I hate to hit a raw nerve here but it seems that you really got a dog in this hunt. For as much energy you put into converting people into believing in nothing, truly if you believed in nothing, you could care less what other people thought.

Everyone has a "dog in this hunt" as you put it. Religion and belief is not just an internal thought process, it has very real repercussions in the actual world. Or would you not care if the USA became a Muslim state? Most religions are in their very nature non-inclusive. When you possess the One True Faith then everybody else is lesser than you, poor misguided souls who need some firm guidance. Talk about "private faith" all you want but what it comes down to, is it's just talk. Give the Mormons/Muslims/Baptists whoever majority control and they'll institute their own laws and social standards and force them on you. That's a fact.

So if you believe in living a life of freedom, free to think and act rationally, then it's important to speak up for yourself and not just sit quietly and hope nobody will notice you.

Beyond that, if you are an intelligent person fond of rational thought then you appreciate honest debate. If you're a crazy ideologue, then you can't tolerate a single voice of dissent.

 

[SIG600]

My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend! I kill you!

 

[Paris]

If you are too lazy to read the full old testament, I'd recommend Good Book. Its the cliff notes version of the Old Testament. It contains everything you won't hear on Sunday. If you think a god worthy of worship is probable after reading what the bible really says, good luck.

 

[mitsdriver]

Mits, I would like to ask who these people are, or what organizations they belong to.

Well, those people are ones who seem to spend most of their free time on the quest to oust everything from Christmas decorations to Star of David earrings to rearview mirror ornaments in shape of a cross to yes, the bible itself from society. What started as an effort to remove religious articles from some government institutions (which I have no problem with since I support the seperation of church and state) have now in some cases degenerated into what amounts to religious persecution of private citizens. I agree with you that those folks are in the minority but from what I've seen, such individuals do exist in numbers.

As for the question of how to seperate the truth from the stories in the bible, I guess there are no easy answers to that. It seems us mortals are left to our own devices to interprete the bible and seek its true meaning. Perhaps that's why it's called FAITH or BELIEF. If God showed Himself and made it clear in plain language as to exactly what the truth is and what isn't, there wouldn't be a need for anyone to have a faith. Maybe this is God's way of challenging the mankind and putting us to a task...

Anyway, I appreciate the open mind and the civilized discussion from you.

 

[psmd0311]

I think you will find that the majority of atheists don't care what you believe in. You can dress your garden up with as many Santa claus lighted figures as you want. Its your property do what you want. Most of the complaints that you mention come from other religious organizations that feel that they are being discriminated against.

Just keep religion out of schools and government, and I dont want to see my tax’s going to pay for a christmas tree in a town centre along with any other religious decoration. You can have as many religious channels on TV as you want as long as I am not paying for them and I can click to the next channel. I think religion is full of lies and hypocrisy and I hope it goes away, but people can believe in what they want. I wont force my beliefs down peoples throats and go on atheist missionary trips all over the world to convince people there is no god. But I will not hold back my thoughts when religion is being discussed, there seems to be an unwritten rule that you cant criticizes someones faith. I see it as fair game just like any other topic.