Pagan, Wiccan, Druid worship area at USAFA

[LowlyPropCapt]

Wow... I disappear to take care of some family health issues for a couple weeks and the conversation is still going strong! Outstanding!

I am not sure where to dive in here since there is so much stuff that has been said since I was last here, but it would seem Shag is still on this "evolution disproves God" kick. Shag, what makes you think that the Bible is a science book? It is salvation history, not honors biology. Can we at least agree on that?

When your kids were little and they asked where babies came from, did you give them all the biological details or did you make things a little more age appropriate? So it is with the Bible. The mechanisms of creation are unimportant to the premise of the Bible, which is: God exists. God loves. God saves. Would the point not have been lost if the exact chemistry had been recorded? Remember we are asked to accept God by faith through our own free will. Would an exact timeline with the formulas and mechanics not dictate against accepting God through our free will? I would contend that it would and that would not make us human, but automatons incapable of love. But then again, love is a purely biological and evolutionary phenomenon and completely without meaning, according to you. I am still waiting to match wits with you on the NT, by the way. I am teaching Acts and Romans this week so the material is rather fresh in my mind.

Nado, I recall asking for your thoughts, so thanks for your candor. Again, I must try and remind you (as I reminded Shag) to differentiate between religion and faith. Remember, religion is a HUMAN construct whose purpose is the corporate worship of the divine. We all agree (albeit for different reasons) that humans are fallible and the human institution of religion is no different. Faith is entirely a different matter. When you use religion as an argument against God all you do is kill the messenger... Fallible and sometimes outright wrong he may be. To be intellectual honest, you must disengage human actions from the equation and consider without human bias the evidence for and against God and what His nature might be.

People do and have done all sorts of evil in His name. But since we are creatures of free will, does that really dictate against his existence? Or is it merely possible we have used His name to further our own narrow earthly goals?

As for the 10 Commandments, you might be right but for one important point. The first four commandments have nothing to do with keeping things in line or giving society reasonable rules to follow. They deal only with the sanctity of the one God. This was unique in that area of the world at this point in history (monotheism). Isn't it more likely that if the Hebrew people's leaders wanted organized rules they simply would have borrowed from the pantheon of gods in surrounding cultures? Why were these people so absolutely unique?

I have enjoyed everyone's input! Keep it up!

 

[mitsdriver]

For many, this seems to be the prevailing theme:

"I have not seen it. Therefore it does not exist."

Science goes only as far as current human knowledge and understanding, which is quite limited and incomplete in the grand scale of things. To think that we got everything figured out based solely on our current knowledge would be quite ignorant and arrogant in my humble opinion. There are many things on Earth and in universe which the human science has yet to fully explain or comprehend. Who knows what (or who) is out there? And who's to say that in the future, perhaps in hundreds or thousands of years, we won't discover something that invalidates every scientific law and theory known to man and force us to start from scratch and rethink everything?

Does God exist? Personally, I think so. Can we scientifically prove it? Of course not. Does that mean He doesn't exist for sure? You decide.

Call me naive. But my belief is that the Earth, the life on it, and the universe is just too refined, balanced, and complex to have come into existance simply by some accident or random event. Just my 02 cents.

 

[psmd0311]

When your kids were little and they asked where babies came from, did you give them all the biological details or did you make things a little more age appropriate? So it is with the Bible.

Most Kids get told a stork delivers babies through the bedroom window, but as we get older and less naive/gullible we grow out of these stories and learn the truth.

 

[AirCobra]

Most Kids get told a stork delivers babies through the bedroom window, but as we get older and less naive/gullible we grow out of these stories and learn the truth.

I seem to find the older people get the more versions of truth they create to satisfy their own needs.

 

[Basil]

If it's proof you want...

Behold, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfqht0LEOWQ

 

[shagadelic]

It is salvation history, not honors biology. Can we at least agree on that?

We can, but a large percentage of your pew mates can not. They see it as the literal word of god.

They literally think that 6,000 years ago God made the first man out of dust - not even mud - and the first woman out of a bone; that God cursed the whole human race because a snake made the woman eat an apple; that God had a son by another man's wife, and that he had this son murdered in order to keep himself from sending all the human race to hell.

This son taught that any man who did not believe that piece of ignorance would go to hell and burn eternally in fire and brimstone.

So no, it's not a science book, and the entire idea of it is not compatible with science. If you want to believe in the magic, great. I don't have a problem with it. Keep it out of science class, and out of government, and I'll STFU. The problem is you've got your fundie nut jobs who won't stop until a bible is in every classroom.

So for that reason, when a christian cadet puts a cross in a wiccan holy site at USAFA, I will stand up and remind people that the wiccan site is just as valid (or non-valid) as the chapel, or the synagogue, or the mosque. They are all equal, you just happen to have been raised in one that your parents were raised in. Period.

Basil, very funny. Thanks!

 

[psmd0311]

Propcapt,

I am trying to understand christian beliefs, do you believe everything in the bible? That noah put every animal in the world on a boat and sailed away? The earth was made in seven days and man was walking around. Where do dinosaurs fit in with all of this? Was Adam walking around with them? If you believe in the bible surely you have to take it word for word as being correct or does it not work that way?

I think most non believers agree that people can worship and believe anything they want, just keep it out of the schools and politics. Its scary when world leaders are turning to their faith for answers.

 

[mitsdriver]

The problem is you've got your fundie nut jobs who won't stop until a bible is in every classroom.

Well, unfortunately, that goes both ways. There are also equal number of nut jobs who won't stop until every bible is destroyed.

I do agree with your stance on the said USAFA cadet. No one should repress or ridicule others' faith (or non-faith) just because it is different from his/her beliefs.

Won't the world be a much better place if everyone just minded their own faith and didn't care what the person next to them believes in?

I believe Jesus taught us to spread His message. However I don't believe that He said anything about FORCING His message upon others. It is up to each individual's free will whether to accept or reject Him after hearing His message.

I am a Christian but have many friends who are not. We don't let our differences in beliefs to come between us. We rarely talk about our faiths and certainly do not attemt to "convert" each other. Frankly, I don't get all worked up about what others believe in, whether it be God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Buddah, Confucius, Zeus, Eywa, Undertaker, sea people, or none.

 

[mitsdriver]

Propcapt,

I am trying to understand christian beliefs, do you believe everything in the bible? That noah put every animal in the world on a boat and sailed away? The earth was made in seven days and man was walking around. Where do dinosaurs fit in with all of this? Was Adam walking around with them? If you believe in the bible surely you have to take it word for word as being correct or does it not work that way?

I think most non believers agree that people can worship and believe anything they want, just keep it out of the schools and politics. Its scary when world leaders are turning to their faith for answers.

I don't think the Bible is meant to be interpreted literally. As someone already mentioned, that 7 days does not necessarily mean 7 Earth days.

When you read about how God took one of Adam's bones and created Eve from it, could it possibly mean that God took the DNA sample from Adam and modified it to create Eve? In other words, could Eve have evolved from Adam? Or something along those lines?

I believe the evolution takes place. However I also believe that God is the driving force behind it. Someone earlier have said that the DNA is like a computer program. In that case, I believe that God is the programmer.

 

[shagadelic]

There are also equal number of nut jobs who won't stop until every bible is destroyed.

Mits, I would like to ask who these people are, or what organizations they belong to. I'm a pretty strong atheist and would never advocate such a position, nor have I ever heard an atheist/agnostic/humanist ever take such a position. I'm sure there are those out there, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find them. Meanwhile, I can cite all day long people wanting to create a Christian nation to the exclusion of others.

I like a lot of your other points, and in fact I used to reconcile a lot of things in the bible the same way by saying they were not literal but just simplistic explanations given to those who wouldn't understand otherwise. The problem then becomes, what in the bible is real, and what are just simplistic stories? That's the problem I see Christians having, they can 1) believe everything in the bible is the inerrant word of god, which puts you in the preposterous position of believing in a flood that covered the earth and the Earth is 6000 years old earth garbage, etc etc or 2) it's a collection of stories designed to teach you a greater truth, but is not necessarily how it actually happened, as it is dumbed down for the masses. Number 1 is not really an option, except for the loonies, but number 2 leaves you wondering what exactly is real, and what are just the stories? How do we know? If the book is just a bunch of stories that we have no idea of knowing what's true and what is not, then what's the point of it in the first place? That doesn't even account for the fact that the bible is just one out of thousands of texts that supposedly contain the word of "god". We sometimes get arrogant and forget this is not the only myth based text out there....there are plenty more out there equally as fallacious.

 

[ackattacker]

shagadelic, I hate to hit a raw nerve here but it seems that you really got a dog in this hunt. For as much energy you put into converting people into believing in nothing, truly if you believed in nothing, you could care less what other people thought.

Everyone has a "dog in this hunt" as you put it. Religion and belief is not just an internal thought process, it has very real repercussions in the actual world. Or would you not care if the USA became a Muslim state? Most religions are in their very nature non-inclusive. When you possess the One True Faith then everybody else is lesser than you, poor misguided souls who need some firm guidance. Talk about "private faith" all you want but what it comes down to, is it's just talk. Give the Mormons/Muslims/Baptists whoever majority control and they'll institute their own laws and social standards and force them on you. That's a fact.

So if you believe in living a life of freedom, free to think and act rationally, then it's important to speak up for yourself and not just sit quietly and hope nobody will notice you.

Beyond that, if you are an intelligent person fond of rational thought then you appreciate honest debate. If you're a crazy ideologue, then you can't tolerate a single voice of dissent.

 

[SIG600]

My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend! I kill you!

 

[Paris]

If you are too lazy to read the full old testament, I'd recommend Good Book. Its the cliff notes version of the Old Testament. It contains everything you won't hear on Sunday. If you think a god worthy of worship is probable after reading what the bible really says, good luck.

 

[mitsdriver]

Mits, I would like to ask who these people are, or what organizations they belong to.

Well, those people are ones who seem to spend most of their free time on the quest to oust everything from Christmas decorations to Star of David earrings to rearview mirror ornaments in shape of a cross to yes, the bible itself from society. What started as an effort to remove religious articles from some government institutions (which I have no problem with since I support the seperation of church and state) have now in some cases degenerated into what amounts to religious persecution of private citizens. I agree with you that those folks are in the minority but from what I've seen, such individuals do exist in numbers.

As for the question of how to seperate the truth from the stories in the bible, I guess there are no easy answers to that. It seems us mortals are left to our own devices to interprete the bible and seek its true meaning. Perhaps that's why it's called FAITH or BELIEF. If God showed Himself and made it clear in plain language as to exactly what the truth is and what isn't, there wouldn't be a need for anyone to have a faith. Maybe this is God's way of challenging the mankind and putting us to a task...

Anyway, I appreciate the open mind and the civilized discussion from you.

 

[psmd0311]

I think you will find that the majority of atheists don't care what you believe in. You can dress your garden up with as many Santa claus lighted figures as you want. Its your property do what you want. Most of the complaints that you mention come from other religious organizations that feel that they are being discriminated against.

Just keep religion out of schools and government, and I dont want to see my tax’s going to pay for a christmas tree in a town centre along with any other religious decoration. You can have as many religious channels on TV as you want as long as I am not paying for them and I can click to the next channel. I think religion is full of lies and hypocrisy and I hope it goes away, but people can believe in what they want. I wont force my beliefs down peoples throats and go on atheist missionary trips all over the world to convince people there is no god. But I will not hold back my thoughts when religion is being discussed, there seems to be an unwritten rule that you cant criticizes someones faith. I see it as fair game just like any other topic.

 

[shagadelic]

I think you will find that the majority of atheists don't care what you believe in. You can dress your garden up with as many Santa claus lighted figures as you want. Its your property do what you want. Most of the complaints that you mention come from other religious organizations that feel that they are being discriminated against.

Just keep religion out of schools and government, and I dont want to see my tax’s going to pay for a christmas tree in a town centre along with any other religious decoration. You can have as many religious channels on TV as you want as long as I am not paying for them and I can click to the next channel. I think religion is full of lies and hypocrisy and I hope it goes away, but people can believe in what they want. I wont force my beliefs down peoples throats and go on atheist missionary trips all over the world to convince people there is no god. But I will not hold back my thoughts when religion is being discussed, there seems to be an unwritten rule that you cant criticizes someones faith. I see it as fair game just like any other topic.

Exactly....We've been quiet too long. Well said.

 

[waka]

The only thing fringe here is your fringe opinions about history. I see you are back again posting the same misinformation. I will remind you...again, Judaism predates the religions you cited last time, and Christianity predates both Islam and Hinduism. Second point Constantine did not declare Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. I am not even sure what Roman Empire you are speaking of since there were two during much of Constantine's reign as Emperor. I find no evidence he declared Christianity the official religion of the Eastern or Western Empire. Try again to make a relevant point based perhaps in some historical fact or evidence.

No AirCobra, you didn't prove anything the first time and you have yet to prove your dogmatic and emotionally influenced version of history. Sorry pal, most of what Judaism revolves around is not original....I have already shown that.

You see no evidence of Constantine's declarations? Ok, I can see how YOU would say that. Legitimization Under Constantine

No matter how much you try to obfuscate history, it doesn't change the facts. I guess I don't really blame you as you're clearly brainwashed with the glory of YOUR god. I know how it is, I am a former Christian.


Bonus Link!
Wrap the small part of your brain that you have left to rational thought around this;

http://lukeprog.com/religion/gods.html

 

[AirCobra]

No AirCobra, you didn't prove anything the first time and you have yet to prove your dogmatic and emotionally influenced version of history. Sorry pal, most of what Judaism revolves around is not original....I have already shown that.

You see no evidence of Constantine's declarations? Ok, I can see how YOU would say that. Legitimization Under Constantine

No matter how much you try to obfuscate history, it doesn't change the facts. I guess I don't really blame you as you're clearly brainwashed with the glory of YOUR god. I know how it is, I am a former Christian.


Bonus Link!
Wrap the small part of your brain that you have left to rational thought around this;

http://lukeprog.com/religion/gods.html

Constantine ended persecution of Christians and promoted religious tolerance for Christians through the Edict of Milan. Are you saying perhaps it would have been better if he continued the Roman practice of killing Christians? Constantine kept the Roman temples and gods and took part in festivals celebrating Roman gods, the link you provided comments he was likely not a Christian.

The assertion was Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome. Saying Constantine legitimized Christianity is very different than saying he proclaimed it the official religion of Rome.

If you were a Christian what do you think was Christ's central message? How does His message differ from the way modern Christians act?

 

[AirCobra]

Everyone has a "dog in this hunt" as you put it. Religion and belief is not just an internal thought process, it has very real repercussions in the actual world. Or would you not care if the USA became a Muslim state? Most religions are in their very nature non-inclusive. When you possess the One True Faith then everybody else is lesser than you, poor misguided souls who need some firm guidance. Talk about "private faith" all you want but what it comes down to, is it's just talk. Give the Mormons/Muslims/Baptists whoever majority control and they'll institute their own laws and social standards and force them on you. That's a fact.

So if you believe in living a life of freedom, free to think and act rationally, then it's important to speak up for yourself and not just sit quietly and hope nobody will notice you.

Beyond that, if you are an intelligent person fond of rational thought then you appreciate honest debate. If you're a crazy ideologue, then you can't tolerate a single voice of dissent.

The problem is when you lump the tennants of Christianity as the FF's used them in creating our government with every other religion. They used Judeo-Christian principle because it focused on freedom and equality. The problem lies with your inability to seperate Judeo-Christian philosophy form demoninational Christian religion. Reading about China will not make me Chinese anymore than reading the Bible will make me a Jew or a Christian. When in a historical context Judeo-Christian principle serves as a foundational philosophy for our laws and govenrment, how can you thus seperate it from our government? How can you give insight into what words like liberty and freedom meant to the FF's if you can't cite the primary basis of their philosophy?

All I see here is fear and paranoia from you guys devoid of any historical fact. The Bible was used in public schools to teach civics up until the 1930's. Was the United States a religious, theocracy back then? Just the opposite, it was arguably the most religiously tolerant nation in the world. So how does your contention hold any water? How about this, if the philosophies behind Judaism and Islam are the same, and any religious based theocray is what we must be fearful of (Muslim, Jew Mormon, Baptist), why aren't Israel and Iran the same?

 

[ackattacker]

The problem is when you lump the tennants of Christianity as the FF's used them in creating our government with every other religion. They used Judeo-Christian principle because it focused on freedom and equality. The problem lies with your inability to seperate Judeo-Christian philosophy form demoninational Christian religion. Reading about China will not make me Chinese anymore than reading the Bible will make me a Jew or a Christian. When in a historical context Judeo-Christian principle serves as a foundational philosophy for our laws and govenrment, how can you thus seperate it from our government? How can you give insight into what words like liberty and freedom meant to the FF's if you can't cite the primary basis of their philosophy?

All I see here is fear and paranoia from you guys devoid of any historical fact. The Bible was used in public schools to teach civics up until the 1930's. Was the United States a religious, theocracy back then? Just the opposite, it was arguably the most religiously tolerant nation in the world. So how does your contention hold any water? How about this, if the philosophies behind Judaism and Islam are the same, and any religious based theocray is what we must be fearful of (Muslim, Jew Mormon, Baptist), why aren't Israel and Iran the same?

That is the biggest load of horse pucky I've seen in a while. I don't even know where to start. To begin with, you put a whole hell of a lot of words in my mouth and I don't appreciate it.

First, this nation was not founded on any "biblical", "judeo-christian" principles. Show me a passage in the bible that talks about democracy, freedom, or equality. If anything, the founding fathers looked to the ancient Greeks and Romans and there you can find most of the guiding philosophy behind our Republic.

Your argument goes something like this: The Founding Fathers were Christian. Therefore the Constitution is a Christian document. Therefore our government is Christian.

Ignoring the fact that there is not a single reference to God or any biblical, Christian tenent in the Consistution at all. And that one of the bedrock goals of the FF was to establish freedom of religion. It was so important that it was essentially the ONLY right outlined in the original Constitution (prior to the Bill of Rights)... the "no religious test" clause.

it is true that a substantial philosphical basis of our judicial system is evolved from a long European tradition dating back at least to Thomas Aquinas and his theories of Natural Law and moving through many generations and governments. And naturally those people were at least nominally Christians (as was every European back then, on pain of death). Nevertheless the ideas themselves are not Christian nor contained in the bible. Even Thomas Aquinas borrowed very heavily from Aristotle.

 

[AirCobra]

That is the biggest load of horse pucky I've seen in a while. I don't even know where to start. To begin with, you put a whole hell of a lot of words in my mouth and I don't appreciate it.

First, this nation was not founded on any "biblical", "judeo-christian" principles. Show me a passage in the bible that talks about democracy, freedom, or equality. If anything, the founding fathers looked to the ancient Greeks and Romans and there you can find most of the guiding philosophy behind our Republic.

Your argument goes something like this: The Founding Fathers were Christian. Therefore the Constitution is a Christian document. Therefore our government is Christian.

Ignoring the fact that there is not a single reference to God or any biblical, Christian tenent in the Consistution at all. And that one of the bedrock goals of the FF was to establish freedom of religion. It was so important that it was essentially the ONLY right outlined in the original Constitution (prior to the Bill of Rights)... the "no religious test" clause.

it is true that a substantial philosphical basis of our judicial system is evolved from a long European tradition dating back at least to Thomas Aquinas and his theories of Natural Law and moving through many generations and governments. And naturally those people were at least nominally Christians (as was every European back then, on pain of death). Nevertheless the ideas themselves are not Christian nor contained in the bible. Even Thomas Aquinas borrowed very heavily from Aristotle.

You have proved my point in spades. You have no idea where the foundations of our government and law come from do you? You have no idea the preamble of the Constitution is virtually lifted word for word from a sermon by a minister do you? Where is the Greek principle of "promoting the general welfare?" Don't bother looking because there is none. This has nothing to with the founding fathers being Christian thus our government is Christian. You don't understand what I am talking about. It has everything to do with God's calling the Jews his chosen people. Jesus comes along and says we are all equal in the site of God, Jew and Gentile alike. No one is more chosen than the other, all can enter the kingdom.

If we are all equal in God's eyes, then no one rules by divine right, and each of us can have a personal say in how we are governed since we are all equal. This was totally radical when Jesus said and still totally radical when the FF's created a system of government from that principle. Why do you think Jefferson talks about rights coming from a Creator. The unalienable rights Jefferson speaks about are based not in Greek concepts of democracy but in Biblical conc pets of liberty, freewill, and self determination. The unalienable rights Jefferson talks about are from a sermon written by John Winthrop. Winthrop did not get the points of his sermon from the Greeks. How often do the FF's cite the Greeks as influences versus say someone like Locke or Winthrop. How often did they talk about Christian principle versus Aristotle?

What about the Law. William Blackstone is cited as the father of English common law and his writings served as the foundations for the American legal system. Go read up and figure out what Blackstone has to say about the law and God and then give me an honest assessment of the foundations of our legal principles.
You above statements a clear indication of exactly what is wrong with our educations system you have no understanding what the Bible is talking about, and how it relates to the philosophies of our government. Put away your prejudice, and look at the central message and how Christian philosophy applies to our government instead of trying to look for ways it doesn't.

EDIT-I didn't me too come off a harsh but certain things endlessly frustrate me. Most people today have very little understanding of the foundations of our government because of the way the subject is taught in public schools. A few days in any college course in American Government usually clears up a lot. Winthrop is a forgotten man in our history becuase he was a Puritan Minister and wrote a lot about God and government. Not PC today but he was only 60 years removed from the FF's, so he had yet to be whitwashed from public education. On youtube they have a the series Alistair Cooke's America. Check it out. He talks a lot about Winthrop probably in episode two or three. Then read his writings on the philosophy of government. Virginia was a very secular colony yet Jefferson was intimately familiar with Winthrop's writings, as was Madison.

Let me ask you, could you teach about Ghandi and the principles of non-violence without talking about Hinduism? Well if Ghandi was being taught in an American high school they would find a way to do it and then you would have no idea what Ghandi was talking about or what influenced his stance. Do you think if a teacher mentioned Ghandi was a Hindu and Hinduism influenced his actions it would turn America into a religious theocracy with everyone being forced to convert to Hinduism? Sounds propsterous to me, but that is the argument why we can't talk about Biblical influence in our government.

 

[psmd0311]

If we are all equal in God's eyes, then no one rules by divine right, and each of us can have a personal say in how we are governed since we are all equal. This was totally radical when Jesus said and still totally radical when the FF's created a system of government from that principle.

Aircobra,

You are saying how great the American system is and how it was helped formed by religion. I dont know how you can forget that black men and women had to sit at the back of a bus and couldnt drink from a white water fountain in the US until what? the 1950's, 1960's? If 90% of the country are religious, and the bible sees everyone equal like you say, why did it take so long to stomp this one out? Using history to defend christianity isnt going to get you far, unless you believe the Spanish inquisition was a good thing.

 

[ackattacker]

What about the Law. William Blackstone is cited as the father of English common law and his writings served as the foundations for the American legal system. Go read up and figure out what Blackstone has to say about the law and God and then give me an honest assessment of the foundations of our legal principles.

William Blackstone is not the father of English Common Law, he cannot be, English Common Law dates from the Middle Ages and William Blackstone lived from 1723 to 1780. William Blackstone published a treatise which summarized English Common Law as it already existed at that time. English Common Law draws on a large and varied history including Roman Law and theories of Natural Law.

It has everything to do with God's calling the Jews his chosen people. Jesus comes along and says we are all equal in the site of God, Jew and Gentile alike. No one is more chosen than the other, all can enter the kingdom.

The New Testament says that the Kingdom of Heaven is still open to Jews, but only after all the Gentiles are saved first (Romans 11). Hardly a rousing declaration of the equality of all humanity.

The unalienable rights Jefferson talks about are from a sermon written by John Winthrop. Winthrop did not get the points of his sermon from the Greeks. How often do the FF's cite the Greeks as influences versus say someone like Locke or Winthrop. How often did they talk about Christian principle versus Aristotle?

Everybody is influenced by somebody. The FF's were influenced by Locke, Winthrop and others, they were influenced by previous writers and speech makers, etc. And fundamentally the philosophy is a philosphy of man, of natural law, and has nothing to do with "Divine Law" which is in fact repudiated by the New Testament and the New Covenant.

Even the phrase "unalienable rights" ("endowed by their creator") is a reference to Natural Law and the belief that certain rights are inherent. It has nothing to do with an specific religion, or even lack of religion, since it could be argued that all religions and even atheism have a creation theory.

One of the most influential and outspoken Founding Fathers was Thomas Paine, who was not Christian and an outspoken opponent of all organized religion.

 

[waka]

Constantine ended persecution of Christians and promoted religious tolerance for Christians through the Edict of Milan. Are you saying perhaps it would have been better if he continued the Roman practice of killing Christians? Constantine kept the Roman temples and gods and took part in festivals celebrating Roman gods, the link you provided comments he was likely not a Christian.

I don't know what you read, but Constantine was very much a Christian as was described in the link. Again, had it not been for him, Christianity would have died along with any of the other lunatic fringe religions of the time.

The assertion was Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome. Saying Constantine legitimized Christianity is very different than saying he proclaimed it the official religion of Rome.

Actually, no. It is not different, not at all. He actually did. It is just that you Christians know that this fact renders your position as illegitimate. Thus, you will reach in desperation, as you have for hundreds of years, for any shred of validity that you crave and need.

If you were a Christian what do you think was Christ's central message? How does His message differ from the way modern Christians act?

I'll answer your irrelevant question;

Humility, peace and love. If any so-called "modern Christians" think otherwise, they're not Christians. Additionally, modern Christianity thinks that your god blesses countries. What a f##king crock!

 

[AirCobra]

Aircobra,

You are saying how great the American system is and how it was helped formed by religion. I dont know how you can forget that black men and women had to sit at the back of a bus and couldnt drink from a white water fountain in the US until what? the 1950's, 1960's? If 90% of the country are religious, and the bible sees everyone equal like you say, why did it take so long to stomp this one out? Using history to defend christianity isnt going to get you far, unless you believe the Spanish inquisition was a good thing.

What was the product of the Inquisition and the imposed theocracy of the Catholic Church? Wasn't it the Reformation. What was the product of the imposed theocracy of the Church of England? Wasn't it the Pilgrims and later the Puritans. What was the basis for the abolitionist movement and later the Civil Rights Movement of Reverend Martin Luther King? How about William Wilberforce in England, what influenced his stance on slavery? Slavery was about economics not region, and the people that worked the hardest to abolish slavery used Biblical principle to point out slavery's injustice. They drew a spotlight on the hypocrisy of a supposed Christian using another person solely for economic gain. The argument against slavery had a moral basis. What was the foundation of that moral basis?

So what are you saying that if someone that said we need to abolish slavery because it is wrong in the eyes of God and against Christian principle they are hypocrites and cannot be a moral person because of the Spanish Inquisition? Then no one is moral because all of us have done something wrong so all of our actions would therefore be suspect. This is exactly what the FF's were trying to get rid of. The sins of the father will not be wrought upon the son. To the FF's this concept meant we were all equal in the eyes of the law and that you will not be forced to continually pay for injustice, nor will you pay for the injustices of your father.

Do you really think this way? That a Catholic today cannot be a moral person and tell others they should help the poor, the sick or the suffering because 500 years ago there was a Spanish Inquisition. So you would hold Mother Teresa responsible for that and call her a big hypocrite. Boy am I glad we don't live in a country where people are held to your standards of justice.

 

[AirCobra]

I don't know what you read, but Constantine was very much a Christian as was described in the link. Again, had it not been for him, Christianity would have died along with any of the other lunatic fringe religions of the time.

From your link:
Constantine ends not converting, technically, to Christianity, but becoming a patron of one particular branch of the church. It happens to be the branch of the church that has the Old Testament as well as the New Testament as part of its canon.

I don't think Christians of that time would would be making sacrafices to Roman Gods in Roman temples.

Actually, no. It is not different, not at all. He actually did. It is just that you Christians know that this fact renders your position as illegitimate. Thus, you will reach in desperation, as you have for hundreds of years, for any shred of validity that you crave and need.
Constantine didn't do what you assert. Early Christains went forth and preached the gospel. Constantine was nice enough not to kill them for it. Even if your assertion was true, how did Constantine legitimize Christianity in the Western Roman Empire? At best he could only have legitimized Christianity in the Eastern Empire. Not to mention what influenced those Christians the Romans were killing in the first place since there seemed to be a whole lot of them?

You seem to be saying that Constantine did something wrong by stopping the wholesale slaughter of Christians. Like "too bad if he would have let the killing continue those Christian nuts wouldn't be around anymore"
Sounds pretty twisted.



I'll answer your irrelevant question;

Humility, peace and love. If any so-called "modern Christians" think otherwise, they're not Christians. Additionally, modern Christianity thinks that your god blesses countries. What a f##king crock!

Try again, that is not Christ's central message. The question is extremely relevant. You have just demonstrated you are commenting on something you don't understand, and you rejected something you didn't understand. Not saying anyone can't reject Christ's message, that is up to each individual person, but if you are going to be telling others they should reject Christ's message it would help your credibility if you understood what you rejected, and what you are telling others to reject.

 

[AirCobra]

William Blackstone is not the father of English Common Law, he cannot be, English Common Law dates from the Middle Ages and William Blackstone lived from 1723 to 1780. William Blackstone published a treatise which summarized English Common Law as it already existed at that time. English Common Law draws on a large and varied history including Roman Law and theories of Natural Law.

Blackstone wrote down Common Law and discussed its philosophy. His were pivitiol in creating or system of justice. Blackstone specifically comments that Natural Law was not the same as common law since it does not draw upon where our rights come from.

The New Testament says that the Kingdom of Heaven is still open to Jews, but only after all the Gentiles are saved first (Romans 11). Hardly a rousing declaration of the equality of all humanity.
The principle of chosen people versus all can be saved. Once again we are not talking about slavation. That is not the goal of our government. We are talking about the overall principles of liberty and equality found in Christian philosophy.



Everybody is influenced by somebody. The FF's were influenced by Locke, Winthrop and others, they were influenced by previous writers and speech makers, etc. And fundamentally the philosophy is a philosphy of man, of natural law, and has nothing to do with "Divine Law" which is in fact repudiated by the New Testament and the New Covenant.
Well that is my point isn't it? The FF's were influenced by Christian principle, so why are we pretending they weren't. Saint Thomas, Locke, and Winthrop all hold that natural law is meaningless without a moral foundation. They all believed that moral foundation came from God's Word. That is why they talk about the philosophy of Naural Law in the first place. They are realting how Natural Law fits into Christian philosophy. All I am saying is since Christian principle influenced the FF's we should talk about it in school, otherwise kids won't get the whole picture nor understand what our government is all about.

Even the phrase "unalienable rights" ("endowed by their creator") is a reference to Natural Law and the belief that certain rights are inherent. It has nothing to do with an specific religion, or even lack of religion, since it could be argued that all religions and even atheism have a creation theory.

One of the most influential and outspoken Founding Fathers was Thomas Paine, who was not Christian and an outspoken opponent of all organized religion.
You still have the problem that Payne was raised as a Quaker so there can be no doubt his philosophies on freedom and liberty were influenced by Christian philosophy. Again the goal of government is not salvation, and Christian philosophy used by the FF's in terms of the foundations of our government were not for the purposes of salvation. Salvation is not the reason I believe the Bible should be taught in schools. I believe the Bible as it applies to the foundations and philosophy of our government is what should be taught.

 

[waka]

From your link:
Constantine ends not converting, technically, to Christianity, but becoming a patron of one particular branch of the church. It happens to be the branch of the church that has the Old Testament as well as the New Testament as part of its canon.

I don't think Christians of that time would would be making sacrafices to Roman Gods in Roman temples.

How did you extract that from your quote? Wow! You're really reaching.....even more than you normally do.

Constantine didn't do what you assert. Early Christains went forth and preached the gospel. Constantine was nice enough not to kill them for it. Even if your assertion was true, how did Constantine legitimize Christianity in the Western Roman Empire? At best he could only have legitimized Christianity in the Eastern Empire. Not to mention what influenced those Christians the Romans were killing in the first place since there seemed to be a whole lot of them?

You seem to be saying that Constantine did something wrong by stopping the wholesale slaughter of Christians. Like "too bad if he would have let the killing continue those Christian nuts wouldn't be around anymore"
Sounds pretty twisted.

Again, what you say is driven not by historical facts, but from what you believe. Everything you say here is deflated by the simple fact that Constantine, during his rule, decided that he was a Christian and declared (YES, he did) Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Try again, that is not Christ's central message. The question is extremely relevant. You have just demonstrated you are commenting on something you don't understand, and you rejected something you didn't understand. Not saying anyone can't reject Christ's message, that is up to each individual person, but if you are going to be telling others they should reject Christ's message it would help your credibility if you understood what you rejected, and what you are telling others to reject.

This is a straw man argument. My rejection of Christianity has nothing to do with YOUR perception of Christ's message. My rejection of Christianity or any other dogma has to do with the absurdity of theism. That said, ironically enough, it is you that misunderstands Christ's message. For an atheist to have to educate a Christian on such matters is pathetic.

 

[JohnQ]

With Obama increasing troops in Afghanistan and more drone flights in Pakistan than Bush... you two should be quite pleased with your new CinC. No? What is it about the 70K increase and more drone flights you don't like... ?

As a former military flyer, and a libertarian/conservative, I give Obama an A+ in the war against Al-Qaeda (which is truly what 9/11 was...Iraq was an obsession of George Bush's and a mistake, but I don't want to go there). He is doing all the right things, from the huge increase in drones in Pakistan to kill the bad guys--and contrary to your "let's all hold hands" approach, there are/were some evil bastards in the Pakistani tribal regions and Afghanistan, who would slit YOUR throat and spit on your carcass without so much as a second thought--to the troop surge in Afghanistan.

I give him a D to F- on social and economic policy. Running up perpetual $1 trillion deficits all so a delusional electorate can temporarily live in la-la land of "borrow today, let our grandkids pay it off in decades later" will destroy this country as surely as any jihadist ever could.

 

[flyboyike]

My experience with believers is they are in intellectually dishonest.

Unfortunately, the same seems to be the case of many "non-believers" as well.