Overpaid Pilots....yeah right!

[RogerOver]

Ten Most Overpaid Jobs in the U.S.
Commentary: If only such largesse flowed to all of us
By Chris Pummer, CBS.MarketWatch.com

9) Major airline pilots

While American and United pilots recently took pay cuts, senior captains earn as much as $250,000 a year at Delta, and their counterparts at other major airlines still earn about $150,000 to $215,000 - several times pilot pay at regional carriers - for a job that technology has made almost fully automated.

By comparison, senior pilots make up to 40 percent less at low-fare carriers like Jet Blue and Southwest, though some enjoy favorable perks like stock options. That helps explain why their employers are profitable while several of the majors are still teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.

The pilot's unions are the most powerful in the industry. They demand premium pay as if still in the glory days of long-gone Pan Am and TWA, rather than the cutthroat, deregulated market of under-$200 coast-to-coast roundtrips. In what amounts to a per-passenger commission, the larger the plane, the more they earn - even though it takes little more skill to pilot a jumbo jet. It's as much the airplane mechanics who hold our fate in their hands.

 

[jetexas]

There's a thread that addresses this guys article over on Interview Board > Majors

- for a job that technology has made almost fully automated

Which part of my job is 'highly automated'. Is it pulling up the paperwork, preflighting the aircraft and finding a low tire, deciding which way to navigate through a line, dealing with a sick passenger, managing fuel, etc etc.?

I wonder how long it will take for these goons in the press to let on to the American people that most pilots out there make less than just about any job out there.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

In a way he is right. No pilot deserves $250,000 (+) for a first class seat in a 777. It is absolutely ridiculous! The problem with his article is that he makes it sound like pilots in general make that kind of money, which is far from truth. It is the unreasonably high salaries that a minority of senior pilots received that ultimately lead to the financial failures of the major airlines. This eventually forces pay cuts and furloughs across the entire board. So now the majority of pilots are suffering in terms of being severely underpaid to not being employed at all. Gotta love unions .

 

[chperplt]

oh god

Don't temp him man.... He got through one post without talking about god or jesus.

Let's "pray" it continues

 

[Airpiraterob]

has ANYONE written an article in the USA today about whats up wiht the REAL pilot population thats working out there? i mean yeah everything ive read makes it sound like pilots make big bucks. the general consensus (hyoly cow i actually spelled something korrekt!) feels the same way when someone finds out what i do and they're amazed at what I don't make! how is this an overpaid profession when its also one of the most stressful as well.

I wonder where California garbage man was on the list. NPR did a story on the garbage industry out there and its easy as he!! to get $60k there, work overtime and you get 100k out of it no problem....for being a garbage man!!

 

[fLYbUDDY]

for chperplt

May Jesus be with you all today!

 

[TonyC]

How much is a life worth?

In a way he is right. No pilot deserves $250,000 (+) for a first class seat in a 777. It is absolutely ridiculous!

Ask the survivors of the Sioux City DC-10 "landing" how much their pilots were worth that day.

No amount of automation, no amount of training, no amount of assembled knowledge can substitute for the trusted judgment of the man at the controls. Can you put a price on that?

 

[nimtz]

In a way he is right. No pilot deserves $250,000 (+) for a first class seat in a 777. It is absolutely ridiculous! The problem with his article is that he makes it sound like pilots in general make that kind of money, which is far from truth. It is the unreasonably high salaries that a minority of senior pilots received that ultimately lead to the financial failures of the major airlines. This eventually forces pay cuts and furloughs across the entire board. So now the majority of pilots are suffering in terms of being severely underpaid to not being employed at all. Gotta love unions .

Please put the bong down and read a little history. Then return to the conversation.

 

[powerlifter]

In a way he is right. No pilot deserves $250,000 (+) for a first class seat in a 777. It is absolutely ridiculous! The problem with his article is that he makes it sound like pilots in general make that kind of money, which is far from truth. It is the unreasonably high salaries that a minority of senior pilots received that ultimately lead to the financial failures of the major airlines. This eventually forces pay cuts and furloughs across the entire board. So now the majority of pilots are suffering in terms of being severely underpaid to not being employed at all. Gotta love unions .

You make some good points.

The previous responses to your post demonstrate a recurring theme in many flightinfo threads: the amount an airline pilot thinks he is worth knows no bound. You can pay an airline pilot $250k per year to push buttons in a 777, and he'll still complain. The three most common arguments for high wages involve 1) paying dues 2) responsibility 3) skill req'd.

Arguing that "paying dues" justifies a high wage is absolutely rediculous. The best argument I've heard against this is the "turd polisher" argument brought up by another poster awhile back. Picture someone who has trained for years to become the best turd polisher around. He's poured his life into this occupation. He's certainly paid his dues. He's trained hard, and sacrificed a great deal. Anyone with common sense realizes that he doesn't deserve a high wage just because he's paid his dues. The same goes for pilots. Your boss doesn't care if you've paid your dues if there are 1000 guys willing to work for half what you are. It's all about the market, period.

Arguing that "responsibility" justifies a high wage is more logical. Would you want a surgeon to operate on you, knowing that he works for $40k per year and drives a pinto to work? Probably not. I certainly wouldn't. The same goes for airline pilots. Pax want their pilots well-paid and happy, and for good reason. In my book, $100k is "well-paid". Of course, the same argument can be made for a/c mechanics. They should also receive sufficient compensation to ensure high-quality performance.

Arguing that the "skill required" justifies a high wage is not logical. Engineering, mathematics, physics, chemistry, etc. are much more mentally demanding than flying an airliner, and often pay far below the going rate for an airline pilot. Even if flying an airliner did require a great deal of mental aptitude, competition would still drive airline pilot wages down (engineering, anyone?). No matter how you slice it, the market has the last word.

To summarize, the fact that pilots have "paid their dues" and have acquired "rare skills" is irrelevant to their market value. I see two things as being relevant: 1) responsibility assumed for human lives and 2) market supply/demand. Thus, as far as wages are concerned, I lump pilots with aircraft mechanics, air traffic controllers, etc.

Those pilots out there earning over $100k per year have no room to complain about the current state of the industry. The fact that they have secured such lucrative union contracts motivates thousands of wannabees to sink their life's savings into the pursuit of a very shaky dream. They will eat dirt for a decade or two if they see a major seat in their future.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

Please put the bong down and read a little history. Then return to the conversation.

The bong has been down for several years now and the economic textbooks have been opened since. In fact here is an interesting article from the CATO institute:

Written March 2003:
from here

by Stephen Mooreby

Stephen Moore is a senior fellow with the Cato Institute.

The latest statistics released this month from the U.S. Department of Labor indicate 2002 was another dismal year for labor unions. Private sector unions lost more than 400,000 jobs. Only the public sector gained union jobs. At no time in the last 50 years have unions represented a smaller percentage of the American work force than today.

To understand the sad demise of the unions, consider the case of the unions spat with United and American Airlines. United and American both lost roughly $3 billion last year, or almost $5 million a day. Both these once great and profitable airlines are perilously close to being grounded permanently -- as were Eastern and TWA in the 1990s. One factor behind the sudden fall of these airlines is extravagant unionized salaries that have risen to in some cases 50 percent above the industry average.

The machinists, pilots and flight attendant unions have refused to budge in renegotiating contracts with these companies that are bleeding cash. Meanwhile, discount airlines that are much less hamstrung by unions, like Jet Blue and Southwest, are whipping United in every category of service and efficiency.

One can only wonder whether the union bosses fighting United and American have lost all sense of economic reality. With salaries that can exceed $100,000 per worker, if labor costs are not cut in the next several months, there will be no jobs at all for the union to fight for. Federal officials cited out-of-control salaries as a primary cause for turning down United's recent $1.5 billion bailout request.

The purpose of unions is to negotiate favorable salaries for their workers -- but certainly not at the expense of extinguishing jobs. The union movement in America is losing hundreds of thousands of card-carrying members every year precisely because new 21st-century industries refuse to deal with militant unions.

And thank you powerlifter for understanding what I was trying to say

 

[starvingcfi]

christ i hate that guy.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

You make some good points.


The same goes for pilots. Your boss doesn't care if you've paid your dues if there are 1000 guys willing to work for half what you are. It's all about the market, period.

Guess that explains why "Made in China" has become so popular.

 

[Snakum]

christ i hate that guy.

You hate Christ? Well ... you godless Communist! Don't you know he died for your sins, you heathen?!

Minh
(The preceeding was a joke. I'm just trying to beat the Christians to the punch. )

 

[nimtz]

The bong has been down for several years now and the economic textbooks have been opened since. In fact here is an interesting article from the CATO institute:

Written March 2003:
from here



And thank you powerlifter for understanding what I was trying to say

Sorry junior, in earlier days I might up spared with you, but it's not worth my time anymore. Now I just laugh and think that I was once like you when I had my nose stuck in text. After all, I graduated cum laude with my econ degree, so that makes me as much of an expert as you claim to be.

A little time in the real world will teach you that the Stephen Moore's of the world see very little from the academic bubble. BTW, tell Mr. Moore to research a little better cause many ex-TWA employees on this board will tell you that they were not only working for TWA in the 90's, but in fact we're even hired in this time period. That's kind of hard to do if the airline was 'grounded permanentely' as he claims. After all didn't the clueless unions at TWA destroy their workers' jobs! Hey with that level of attention to detail Mr. Moore could definetly find work in the USA Today Editoral page.

 

[Swass]

nimtz, with all of your expertise in econ why don't you explain how TWA and Eastern went the way of the dinosaur. I would be very interested to know if you think the unions had any bearing on the demise of those companies. Is it always "us" aginst "them"?

 

[secks]

Sorry junior, in earlier days I might up spared with you, but it's not worth my time anymore. Now I just laugh and think that I was once like you when I had my nose stuck in text. After all, I graduated cum laude with my econ degree, so that makes me as much of an expert as you claim to be.

It's funny how those of us who take the conservative stance on particularly greedy labor unions are referred to as children, despite the fact that our arguments are usually logical and unassuming. By the way, your econ degree means jack here. I've met plenty of econs who didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground, but man could they do statistical analysis. Anyway, please let us children know why unreasonable labor union contracts in no signficiant way contribute to the decline of major airlines.

 

[nimtz]

It's funny how those of us who take the conservative stance on particularly greedy labor unions are referred to as children, despite the fact that our arguments are usually logical and unassuming. By the way, your econ degree means jack here. I've met plenty of econs who didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground, but man could they do statistical analysis. Anyway, please let us children know why unreasonable labor union contracts in no signficiant way contribute to the decline of major airlines.

You obviously missed the point of that line. My econ degree isn't worth anything more then the paper its written on. I have the same opinon from those in the ivory tower of academia who throw down broad claims while they misconstrue already poor evidence to support their arguements. At least I have taken the time to understand the dynamics in play, instead of merely looking at compensation aka 'managment's favorite statistic.'

Your arguements up to this point are not sound, because they are not backed by anything other then that a 777 captain makes 250K and that is too much money in your opinon. All you have to support your evidence is the recent struggles of the majors, but your lack of knowledge of the industry prevents you from seeing the root causes of the struggles the majors face.

Guess what, a Southwest captain, which most academia people consider the darling of the airline industry and labor relations, makes more then any of his other major peers at his/her position. Does that mean they are a greedy labor union? Well the SWA guys should take pay cuts cause 140K is way too much for a button pusher.

As for the other post asking for my opinons on the demise of TWA/Eastern, I don't have the time to give a full answer. The fact is their is no simple answer to that question, so take the time to read the history for yourself. Those uninformed tend to reach the simple answer that militant unions destroyed the work of helpless management. To even suggest that union greed killed TWA is an insult to many good people who gave up alot to keep TWA afloat as long as it was after deregulation (hint that's a big word for you guys to read up on)...

 

[Fly-n-high]

So in the mid to late 90's, when United, American, and Delta were profitable the pilot salaries were considerably lower than they are today??

What you are saying is that an airline's success is based upon pilot salaries and not the state of the economy??

This premise leads me to belive that you have no formal schooling in economics.

The reason ticket prices are so low in certain markets now is because those markets are saturated. A ticket from LA to NY is cheap because there are 20+ flights a day.

Flying an airplane across the country is a luxury, not a right. If you don't like the fact that pilots are paid what they are, or if you think ticket prices are outrageous then don't fly. One road trip from NY to LA will change your mind real fast.

We don't get paid based on what the public sees us doing. We get paid because of what we are able to do. The example about the Sioux City crash was perfect.

I don't care if you think that $100k is enough. Who are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't make? You sound like a communist.

 

[secks]

Guess what, a Southwest captain, which most academia people consider the darling of the airline industry and labor relations, makes more then any of his other major peers at his/her position. Does that mean they are a greedy labor union? Well the SWA guys should take pay cuts cause 140K is way too much for a button pusher.

Actually, Delta has the highest paid pilots in the industry. Surprise, they're not doing well. That aside, I define any union which demands compensation well above the market rate as greedy. A wage near $140k is excessive, given the current market. In my book, an airline with a properly structured payscale should top out at $110k or so, and start around $70k.

Your arguements up to this point are not sound, because they are not backed by anything other then that a 777 captain makes 250K and that is too much money in your opinon. All you have to support your evidence is the recent struggles of the majors, but your lack of knowledge of the industry prevents you from seeing the root causes of the struggles the majors face.

So you claim that the recent struggles at the majors are not the result of competition from low-cost carriers?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

So what should entertainers get? What about politicians (please include kickbacks and bribes as part of their total compensation)?