"Other" time and PIC

[llowwelll]

Okay, another question for you all out there. Does anyone have a good rule of thumb or know what the airlines think of counting "Other" time for PIC time? I know that SWA specifically excludes all "Other" time so it definitively can't be used there. However, can it be included at other airlines to count toward PIC time?

**For the civilians out there who might not be familiar with "Other" time, it is logged for military airlift aircraft when there are more than two pilots on the crew. Each pilot gets one-third primary, secondary, and "Other". However, some folks make the argument that when you are the aircraft commander on a particular mission, you should be able to log PIC time based on the following rationale from the FAR's:

Pilot-in-command means the person who:
1) Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
2)Has been designated as pilot-in-command before or during the flight; and
3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

 

[Snoopy58]

If you've kept your own logbook with every flight in it, and you only claim PIC when you WERE the AC, some of the airlines will probably be okay with that, as long as they see that you AREN'T claiming any PIC when you were the relief pilot or the copilot as "sole manipulator." HOWEVER, if you get a significantly higher total of PIC doing that than (MP pri + sec + IP/EP time), you're setting yourself up for some questions.

OTOH, once you've got over 1000 good turbine PIC hours, I think the importance of total time starts to drop off somewhat for guys coming out of the military. If you can say, for example, "off the Form 97, pri+sec as an MP I've got 823.4 hours, IP time 325.3 hours, EP time 121.0 hours, total = 1269.7 (of which 142 hours wasn't the designated A-code), AND from my logbook, I have 1329.5 hours as the A-code (of which 201.8 was logged as "other" time)," they'll all probably be happy.

Once they start interviewing again.

As always, though, RTFQ very carefully on the app that you're filling out -- some may have very specific instructions!

cheers,

Snoopy

 

[KC-10 Driver]

I am familiar with the rationale that you could justify PIC for some of your "Other" time, if you were the "A-code". However, I think it is best to be very conservative when converting your military time to civilian time.

In my case, any "Other" time that was in my records was not used at all. I did not include it in any totals.

I wanted no questions in the minds of my prospective employer about the veracity of my flight time, as presented.

Basically, I used the easiest way to avoid any doubt.

 

[kelbill]

As a former C141 toad myself, I'll put in my two cents worth, even though I am a SWA guy now. As another guy alluded too, if you are the A code, you are the man (or woman). For example, if you were the only AC on a flight with two other first pilots, then whatever the total flight time was it is all PIC for you. Primary, secondary, whatever. I don't log any primary time as an FO here at SWA even though I fly every other leg. All I log is SIC. What I did was log 100% of my A code as PIC (the one who gets in trouble if something happens), and when I was a firstpilot/copilot with another copilot/firstpilot onboard I would divy up 1/2 the time as SIC and have as other time. I had about 450 other hours in the starpig. They never made it to my civilian logbook. Remember, you are the A code when getting a checkride/OME if I remember right. So log all that as PIC too, even with a flight evaluator on board.

Hope that helps.

 

[ivauir]

Make the logbook checker;s job easy

If you can hand in your military records and show a clear correlation between those numbers and the numbers you submit then there is nothing to question - uncle sam has verified your time. An extra tenth or two is nothing compared to generating goodwill with your interview team. Bringing in a second logbook when all of your time is military just gives them more work AND a place to find mistakes.

Don't get too fancy - keep it simple, honest and easy to explain. Just my opinion - but it worked for me @ SWA, and I think the same basic principle will work for someone without a military background. Good hunting.

 

[Okaythen]

Just one more option from a former heavy guy:

As alluded to by one of the other folks, if you're the A code, every bit of the time is PIC, even Other. If you're like me, we would always split the times equally on the 781, so you need to take credit for that Other time when, as the AC, your name was on the paperwork (and your butt on the line).

As to PIC time, I had different amounts depending on which airline I was applying to. Some airlines, like SWA, FedEx, and jetBlue to name a few, specify that they only want PIC as defined by FAR Part 1, i.e. A code. While others, like Delta, NWA, and Continental don't specify, and therefore leave you open to use the FAR Part 61 definition which includes "manipulating the controls." Personally, my timing in the Air Force put me with less than 1000 hours of PIC, so counting my Primary time from the co-pilot days was really important. I made a big effort to be honest while also presenting my time in the most competitive way possible. As a side note, I had 3 interviews with major airlines, back in the "salad days" of early 2001, and flight time was never even discussed.

And I totally agree with everyone else in that whatever you do, you have to be comfortable with it and able to easily explain it and support it in an interview.

 

[llowwelll]

Thanks for all the info from everybody that chimed in! One of the great things about this board is being able to pull from the collective wisdom of everyone out there.

Okaythen's reply kind of confused me though. To explain, the process that I've come up with after talking with guys I know to compute PIC is to use something like 75 or 80% of MP Primary and Secondary time (I didn't keep a logbook). I'm comfortable with that and feel like I could easily justify that to any interviewers since I was A-coded at least 75 or 80% of the time that I was an MP. Using this formulation, I come up with about 1100 hr's PIC. However, I also have about 250 hr's MP Other time. I was also easily A-coded for 75 or 80% of that MP Other time and it would supply me with almost 200 hr's of additional PIC time. From the way I understand it, SWA specifically excludes any and all other time from being included in any totals:

For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered.

There doesn't seem to be any wiggle room whatsoever there so no way will I include it for SWA or am I interpreting SWA's guidance incorrectly? However, I do think it would be fair to count a percentage of MP Other time toward PIC since as the A-code I was ultimately responsible for the mission(s). I'd be comfortable explaining that in a logical sense to an interviewer. But...I absolutely don't want to come bopping into an interview with folks thinking I inflated my hours. I just want to go with what is standard and accepted at the other airlines out there. If it's nonstandard and not accepted to use MP Other time toward PIC, then I wouldn't even attempt to.

I've never even thought about using any MC time toward PIC as Okaythen was explaining. Has anyone else done that and what's the prevailing logic on that subject?

Finally, here's another somewhat related question for anyone who wants to attempt to field it. Is there any kind of standard multiplier out there for adjusting military time? Y'know, JB allows military to multiply by 1.3 and SWA instructs military to add .3 for each sortie. Any guidance for the other airlines out there as a rule of thumb or standard?

I'd appreciate anything you all can add to the discussion. Thanks again!!

 

[Snoopy58]

I think you're well on track as things stand, and you don't need any complicated calculations... you might well hurt yourself more than you'd help yourself with that. Here's why I say that:

1. You said you have 1100 "honest" PIC hours, sitting in the seat, with the "A" code. Therefore, you've met the bar for a military guy. More is better, yes, slightly, but "1000 turbine PIC" was pretty much the defacto standard for being competitive at about all the major airlines, even though some would advertise a much lower number to accept the application.

2. Not having a logbook you can point to when you go to justify including "Other" time will complicate your life a lot. While I completely understand where you're coming from (you were in charge, even when you weren't in the seat -- been there done that myself), it will look to some interviewers like you're taking your real time & adding an arbitraty number to it, "because of the way we did things." There are lots of people with lots of excuses for why "my time REALLY should be higher than this," and some are better than others, but unfortunately they ALL smack of logbook inflation. That's a lot of potential risk, for not much potential gain, for somebody in your position.

3. Some guys use FAR 61 ("sole manipulator of the controls" time -- even from the right seat as a copilot) time; some airlines are okay with this, and others aren't. You don't need to, and doing so would muddy the waters. I wouldn't in your case. The FAA is okay with this (when you fill out their paperwork), most airlines don't want to see this sort of "PIC."

4. Military conversions: some airlines publish one (SWA, FEDEX), others use one behind the scenes (but don't tell you about it), others don't. In any event, RTFQ, and if they don't TELL you exactly what they want in terms of a conversion, then DON'T apply one on your own. If they aren't expecting it, doing so would smack of inflating your logbook.

5. I think you're on solid ground with your 80% factor; that gives you a solid number, with no questions, no doubts, no hint of "shading" things (if anything, you're being conservative -- some guys might claim ALL their MP pri/sec as A-code, and interviewers know that that isn't so). Don't confuse the issue with any questionable manipulations.

Your take on SWA's approach is right on. When I went through the process a couple years ago, they took ALL your MP pri/sec + IP/EP time from the Form 97, add their .3 / sortie conversion, and BAM! that's your total time. They didn't worry about sorties as an MP that you didn't have the A-code, the odd sortie that was all "other" time (i.e. increased the "sortie" count on the form), none of that. Simple & straightforward, and I came out from their logbook check with a few more hours than I had coming in (since I subtracted out a few things). That may have changed now, but in any case you're well over 1000 PIC by their method.

Best of luck to you; let's hope the environment turns around so that you're able to start sending out LOTS of apps real soon!

cheers,

Snoopy

 

[llowwelll]

Thanks Snoopy, that was a great explanation of your line of thinking. I really appreciate your input as well as everyone else's so far! Would love to hear anybody else's inputs as well.