Opening Salvo AS vs DL

[General Lee]

Actually the eas program is needed..can't access any city in SE by road so planes only..can't really do it profitably cause of the loads so what are the options exactly? And guess who owns all of the approaches and facilities? That's right our little Eskimo..ps..q-400 can't go below .3 so no JNU KTN sit all winter..maybe you guys can find a cr9 operator to use to bid against us for the eas contract so "delta" can fly there too! guess your dreams of sit are gonna have to wait!

Throw Horizon Dashes on there (probably closer to actual loads), and contract NAC to do the cargo, and that could save the GOVT tons of cash! AK still makes money from Horizon. That way, tax payers win! Riiight??? Do you have scope protection on your cargo routes in Alaska? Could NAC be used instead of you?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Mea25000]

You may be doing all kinds of flying out of ANC, SEA, PDX, and LAX very soon. I hear AS is trying to terminate its code with DAL... Seems someone new came knocking Interesting times indeed. I bet RA might try that 747 trick you keep eluding to and put us back in our place. If you hurry and get your app in at Skywest you might be able to do some of all that new 76 seat RJ flying... Must be a new DAL trick similar to the old 747 trick only totally different. With the new rules you will need a type rating in that CR9 before you get to fly right seat in it though

 

[eskimopilot]

The EXIM program is for poor countries. Sounds like DL could move out of Chisolm, MN if they want too, but that could cost up to 500 jobs in rural MN. What would you do? Sounds like the local tax people would get the money back in tax revenue from those 500 plus people continuing to work. LOL you are getting desperate. Tell me if the EAS program is needed with 734s in AK? Oh, that's right, they may be replaced with Dash-8-400s. That might be more worth it from a GOVT spending standpoint...


Bye Bye---General Lee

So RA has suddenly developed a moral compass? You expect me to believe that he is concerned about the welfare of 500 employees in rural MN. Riiiight.
You didn't comment on my question about last quarters earnings. Did you not pay taxes? Is that something only "poor" companies getto do? Lol.
BTW you are correct about the EAS program. I'm not a big proponent of Government largesse. But it would be hypocritical of me to argue that we operate in a "free market" when every airline benefits some how from government in the airline business. Whether that be from EXIM, EAS, CRAF, US Mail, favorable tax laws or Chapter 11 is irrelevant.

 

[eskimopilot]

Ummmmm, you don't know AK/NW history, obviously. According to a FNWA Capt I talked to recently, when AK made NWA upset about something in their past code share, NWA would place a 747-200 onto the SEA-ANC route, and then dump the fares. That's all it took. A month or two later AK would come back crying, saying sorry. It's about the fares, not about your mileage numbers. Hello????? McFly???? Nah, just jokin. Have a great one!


Bye Bye---General Lee

Yeah for those of you who don't remember AK/NWA history, AK is the airline that is still in business. Lol.

 

[Old School 737]

Yeah for those of you who don't remember AK/NWA history, AK is the airline that is still in business. Lol.

I think NWA would still be around if not for the merger ... And name assimilation

 

[Erlanger]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/today...tle-routes-frenemies-with-alaska-air/3435235/

 

[moochild11]

Oh general..your info is as dated as your uniform..let's see..when was the last 747-200 pax airplane retired..probably about when Alaska relied solely on ANC sea for their profits..you know before all our transcons and being the largest lift to the islands..and etc etc..your right about the fares though..but we can do narrow body flying cheaper than you so I guess position boils down to this..delta is bigger than Alaska and has more "revenue generation" so delta can just dump on all their routes and wait them out..I'm sure your shareholders will just love that strategy! This is the new world..market share at all costs is a thing of the past..alliances and capacity control are the new key words...I'm sure if delta doesn't want our feed maybe someone might be interested in all
Those pax just milling around Seattle..seeing how close our little airport is to Asia and all..

 

[hoover84]

They tried the same maneuver at JFK prior to BK. Flood the market with any jet they can dig up. The end result, a stalemate and JFK became a fully slot controlled airport. That won't be a bad thing for SEA as well.

 

[General Lee]

Yeah for those of you who don't remember AK/NWA history, AK is the airline that is still in business. Lol.

Yeah, because NWA took their 747-200 off the SEA to ANC route. That's one reason.... You sure do LOL a lot.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Oh general..your info is as dated as your uniform..let's see..when was the last 747-200 pax airplane retired..probably about when Alaska relied solely on ANC sea for their profits..you know before all our transcons and being the largest lift to the islands..and etc etc..your right about the fares though..but we can do narrow body flying cheaper than you so I guess position boils down to this..delta is bigger than Alaska and has more "revenue generation" so delta can just dump on all their routes and wait them out..I'm sure your shareholders will just love that strategy! This is the new world..market share at all costs is a thing of the past..alliances and capacity control are the new key words...I'm sure if delta doesn't want our feed maybe someone might be interested in all
Those pax just milling around Seattle..seeing how close our little airport is to Asia and all..

Yeah, and since then your main hub has been invaded, and your North flying that used to be all mainline may be partially replaced by Dash-8-400s. You used to have MD80s doing "Coast Patrol" to places like LGB, BUR, and ONT (from both SEA and PDX). Now SKW CR7s are doing a lot of that, especially from PDX. Your Mexico Ops shrunk when drug violence arose, and your Hawaii Ops is under attack from larger, more efficient Hawaiian A330s with lower CASMs. (They are starting 767 service to Lihue this Summer too to LAX and OAK I believe)

Sooooo, your once impenetrable NW corner of the US and AK flying is being challenged, plus you have zero scope. Try not to get too cocky. You just never know what might happen next. And which other airlines can use your feed in SEA? DL has most of the other gates, and is looking for more. I think the SEA airport likes revenue from INTL flights, and they'll make room for that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

They tried the same maneuver at JFK prior to BK. Flood the market with any jet they can dig up. The end result, a stalemate and JFK became a fully slot controlled airport. That won't be a bad thing for SEA as well.

How did that all work out for DL? DL now goes to more INTL cities from JFK than any other airline there, has a new terminal, and is second in departures only to JB, which flies to more domestic cities from there. DL also has the majority of flights at LGA, swapping a terminal and slots with USAir. Looks like DL has grown significantly in NYC since then. Thanks for bringing it up. The only other DL VP incharge of a city's operation and growth is in NYC, and now one in SEA. That must mean something.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[tico]

I think we should remember who we work for and that has not changed in the history of the airline. Alaska does well when others don't. Our entire structure including our leadership is operating above the level of it's/their competency. Our system design only works as long as we remain a small (120 airplane/1300 pilot)regional airline. The Alaska Air Group has done well for itself but none of us work there. 2 contracts signed during the "best of times" and we still have no job protection. We are unable to even get inflationary raises. Etc..Lets hope that we mostly are ignored by the major airlines as too small and lacking the importance to wage a major campaign against...Pains me to say it but the general is right..we should not get cocky at all

 

[hoover84]

How did that all work out for DL? DL now goes to more INTL cities from JFK than any other airline there, has a new terminal, and is second in departures only to JB, which flies to more domestic cities from there. DL also has the majority of flights at LGA, swapping a terminal and slots with USAir. Looks like DL has grown significantly in NYC since then. Thanks for bringing it up. The only other DL VP incharge of a city's operation and growth is in NYC, and now one in SEA. That must mean something.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Exactly..... Second

 

[Noserider76]

You may be doing all kinds of flying out of ANC, SEA, PDX, and LAX very soon. I hear AS is trying to terminate its code with DAL... Seems someone new came knocking Interesting times indeed. I bet RA might try that 747 trick you keep eluding to and put us back in our place. If you hurry and get your app in at Skywest you might be able to do some of all that new 76 seat RJ flying... Must be a new DAL trick similar to the old 747 trick only totally different. With the new rules you will need a type rating in that CR9 before you get to fly right seat in it though

That would be the best news in a very long time. I wish the great people of AS the best but codeshare is a management tactic to reduce risk and keep the headcount down. DL employees on the West Coast have suffered under it for a long time. DL has plenty of aircraft that can be kept in service instead of retired and fill any route we need. Growth out west would be fantastic and it looks like its on the horizon.

 

[General Lee]

You may be doing all kinds of flying out of ANC, SEA, PDX, and LAX very soon. I hear AS is trying to terminate its code with DAL... Seems someone new came knocking Interesting times indeed. I bet RA might try that 747 trick you keep eluding to and put us back in our place. If you hurry and get your app in at Skywest you might be able to do some of all that new 76 seat RJ flying... Must be a new DAL trick similar to the old 747 trick only totally different. With the new rules you will need a type rating in that CR9 before you get to fly right seat in it though

So, someone else may have come knocking at your door? How many gates do they currently have at SEA? DL has the second most gates, and I doubt they will give anymore up, instead trying to get more.

And why would I go to SKW? Looks like they might be flying most of your West Coast stuff with their MRJs, and since you have zero scope, you might want to apply early, avoid the rush. Good luck!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flyby1206]

Anyone think it is likely that Emirates would want to set up a massive codeshare with Alaska? Seems like they want to set up a transpac operation...

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_06_04_2013_p0-584853.xml

 

[moochild11]

that gate problem goes both ways general..delta came to us lookin for gates and we said no..hence the cancellation of the ground handling contracts..where exactly are all of these "delta" jets gonna park if you cover all of our routes?..and of course we want southwest scope..who doesn't? we were flat out told by the nmb that scope is not a strikeable issue..hence not gonna happen..your scope clause and really all scope clauses get into contracts on the bankruptcy court steps..as far as I know there has never been a scope clause agreed upon outside of a concessionary contract..ie..we are gonna lose it all anyways so we might as well get a scope clause! we haven't been there(yet anyways) so we haven't had the "opportunity" to get a scope clause yet..even with your scope they could add 30 large rj's to the Alaska operation..not exactly great either..

 

[General Lee]

that gate problem goes both ways general..delta came to us lookin for gates and we said no..hence the cancellation of the ground handling contracts..where exactly are all of these "delta" jets gonna park if you cover all of our routes?..and of course we want southwest scope..who doesn't? we were flat out told by the nmb that scope is not a strikeable issue..hence not gonna happen..your scope clause and really all scope clauses get into contracts on the bankruptcy court steps..as far as I know there has never been a scope clause agreed upon outside of a concessionary contract..ie..we are gonna lose it all anyways so we might as well get a scope clause! we haven't been there(yet anyways) so we haven't had the "opportunity" to get a scope clause yet..even with your scope they could add 30 large rj's to the Alaska operation..not exactly great either..

SEA airport has no problem moving people around. UAL was near your gates, and got moved to the South side near the DL island. If they build a customs facility outside of the island, that could give DL a lot more room. I think SEA airport really wants more INTL cities added for additional revenue, and this Spring DL is adding Hong Kong, Seoul, and London Heathrow, with plenty more cities being looked at. Those RJ connections may turn into mainline planes sooner than later, and the airport authority is aware.

The last DL contract tightened the scope, both INTL and Domestic, and will park 145 more RJs than they will add (215 50 seaters parked, 70 76 seaters added), and tied any additional RJs to 717 deliveries. (88 717s coming total). As DL gets financially more sound, it's harder for them to ask for concessions. There may be some give and take in any negotiations, but getting everything they want stopped at the end of BK. Your scope though seems very thin, with many options open to management. That's not good.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[moochild11]

I haven't heard about this new customs facility..where exactly is that going to be..and our scope is not thin..its non existant..my point being that getting it is not possible in this environment..

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

General,

You need to throttle back on the good people at Alaska. It is not their fault the management wants to pick pockets clean with whoever wants them to codeshare. Heck, they got a good thing going there. Love all, serve all.....

They certainly don't carry the arrogance like the Herb turds on here about their setup or the way you add fuel to the fire by combatting them.

I wish good stuff for Alaska and hopefully we can coexist....(psssst no merger)

 

[Dan Roman]

Listen to Bill General.

 

[General Lee]

Bill and Dan,

Throttle back? I'm just hoping for internal growth on the West Coast. I think it is FANTASTIC DL isn't using AK exclusively, and something must be going on if DL places a VP of SEA operations out there. I never slammed AK's service, they have been nice to me on a couple flights too. I know they have a good thing going, I just want DL to expand there to help feed the growing INTL flights.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Old School 737]

Alaska needs to put our big boy pants on and do the islands out of LAX and SFO! And go eastbound from the bay and LAX!

 

[Boxboy]

Alaska needs to put our big boy pants on and do the islands out of LAX and SFO! And go eastbound from the bay and LAX!

Unfortunately, big boy pants don't fit boys with small cajones. Just my .02.

 

[tico]

Alaska needs to put our big boy pants on and do the islands out of LAX and SFO! And go eastbound from the bay and LAX!

I think we are actually shrinking LAX not growing it..The Lax terminal remodel/ move was a strategic error according to some scuttlebutt out of corporate...apparently we cant make money there.....asked about SFO directly to one of the 3 musketeers....very unlikely...we have no traffic for east bound flying.....

 

[Old School 737]

I think we are actually shrinking LAX not growing it..The Lax terminal remodel/ move was a strategic error according to some scuttlebutt out of corporate...apparently we cant make money there.....asked about SFO directly to one of the 3 musketeers....very unlikely...we have no traffic for east bound flying.....

Isn't that their job to get the traffic so we can fly it .. God I guess I'll have to fly it AND Get the people .. I want a raise !!!!

 

[msmb]

Old school... Wait another 4.5 years before we talk about a raise!!

 

[Old School 737]

Old school... Wait another 4.5 years before we talk about a raise!!

Oh yea ..

 

[flythere]

Old school... Wait another 4.5 years before we talk about a raise!!

Huh, by then we are talking about a whole different game; all the -400's & -700's are gone, we'll have more CRJ's and those fancy new MRJ's being flown by Skywest or whomever else they've cut a deal with by then!

Hell, we could be wearing a hat and the double breasted donkey suit by then!!!

 

[igneousy2]

as far as I know there has never been a scope clause agreed upon outside of a concessionary contract..ie..we are gonna lose it all anyways so we might as well get a scope clause! we haven't been there(yet anyways) so we haven't had the "opportunity" to get a scope clause yet..even with your scope they could add 30 large rj's to the Alaska operation..not exactly great either..

Simply not true. The big legacy carriers started from the point of "we do all the flying" period. Then with each successive concessionary contract cycle they gave up flying and put limits in the contract. Delta and United managed to put that genie back in the bottle a little bit this past round. AA had a scope that in the late 90's limited connections to 50 a/c over 44 seats. They then had a sick out that basically rolled back that scope til what it is today. The difference between Alaska and the other legacies is that the other legacies started from the contractual assumption that there can be NO connection flying, and then periodically gave it away. AS is now starting from the contractual assumption that it can be given away. A subtle but big difference.