Open Skies US/EU Approved

[flyburg]

Huh? I bet some Skyteam members would allow us to borrow some.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Sure General, just show us the money

A skyteam buddy

 

[Lear70]

A LOT of us WERE donating to the PAC. Well, the PAC won't see another dime from me anymore. I don't know about the others. No sense in supporting a weak organization where they won't represent the majority.

BINGO!

I've said that for the last several years. ALPA and ALPA-PAC haven't been able to do much of ANYTHING that I considered important, and my own Association is actively pushing agendas not supported by the majority of our pilots. Why should I throw perfectly good money away?

No, thanks.

Everyone seems to be skipping the question OK3 asked. How does more trans-atlantic flying hurt our domistic system? I am with him, I must be missing something.

You are.

Open skies isn't just about Transatlantic routes, it's permission for them to do POINT TO POINT inside our domestic system once they're here.

It will take 5-7 years before they're doing it widespread, but just think Branson's Virgin America, the low posted pay scales for that, and how many pilots are just lining up to put in resumes. Now imagine 3 or 4 more large branded carriers in the U.S. doing that head to head against DAL, SWA, etc with a labor CASM about 60-70% less than CURRENT pay rates (which already suck).

FedEx and UPS are, for the moment, the least affected because current regulations prohibit the majority share of ownership in a ground-based company in the U.S., thus keeping them from having shipping terminals, shops, etc where packages could be dropped off, handled, and received domestically (not to mention it would be prohibitively cost-intensive to try to go head to head with those guys to set up that infrastructure).

The passenger carriers, however, are pretty well fu*ked.

 

[flyburg]

Well,

I don't see it that way. Look at NWA. The Netherlands have had an open skies agreement with the US since the early nineties. It means that KLM still only flies to points in the states without onward travel, however NWA has been flying to AMS and onward to India and the likes, picking up pax in AMS.

Also what do you mean by lower wages for the European carriers. Seems to me that with all the hits the legacies have taken that the wages at the legacies in Europe are now higher than the wages in the states. I am not up on the scales in the states but I think somewhere I saw scales for a NWA B747 Cpt posted as 140.000. At KLM a Cpt B747 makes 220.000 euros which would be the equivalent to USD 286.000.

Also the market in the states is pretty much saturated, where as in Europe with all the upcoming economies of the former eastern block/Balkan countries there are still a lot of untouched opportunities.

Seems to me whenever there is a change in law, guys are screeming how unfair it all is to the good o'll United States family just trying to make a living. Well guess what.... we have the same concerns about the the US carriers over here. Hstory shows that US carriers have flown more overhere(cabbotage( fifth freedom of the air)) than vice versa.

greetings

A skyteam member

 

[AA717driver]

There's a pilot shortage??? I'll call flat out BS on that.

Read it again. I said foreign. Any of us could go to China, SIN, Japan, Emirates, Qatar, should I go on? He!!, if the EU wasn't so damned protectionist, we could be a direct entry captain at EasyJet (at least a couple of years ago). And, there are ways to get on at Ryannair. These are not crappy jobs. The JAL, Cathay, ANA and others pay well and have good (not necessarily great) benefits.

I didn't even mention India--the employment situation is nuts there. Just pull up the Parc Aviation site. I'm not saying this will last forever but it will go on for awhile. TC

 

[flyburg]

Read it again. I said foreign. Any of us could go to China, SIN, Japan, Emirates, Qatar, should I go on? He!!, if the EU wasn't so danged protectionist, we could be a direct entry captain at EasyJet (at least a couple of years ago). And, there are ways to get on at Ryannair. These are not crappy jobs. The JAL, Cathay, ANA and others pay well and have good (not necessarily great) benefits.

I didn't even mention India--the employment situation is nuts there. Just pull up the Parc Aviation site. I'm not saying this will last forever but it will go on for awhile. TC

AA717driver,

I see what you mean and you're right about the pilot shortage, however I few remarks to you and some of the other posters

The open skies agreement is between the US and EU,. Some posters have voiced concerns about cheap labor coming from all over the world. This is not an issue since the agreement once again is between US and EU.

European danged protectionist.................I have to take issue with that. It is just as hard for an European guy to work in the US as vice versa. To work in the US you have to have a greencard, how do you get one...well pretty much only through marriage or the lottery(I grant you that, we don't have that overhere). To get a EU working permit you pretty much have the same options. But then, as a green card holder , lately it's almost impossible to get a job at a major due to background checks. I dare say that the proces of getting the JAA licenses is less difficult than getting the background checks in the US. When pilot shortage hit the EU it is a lot easier to bypass the laws(recently Ryan air had shortages and were actually looking for US 737 rated guys).
That would NEVER happen in the US.

For someone taking the time to get the JAA licences it would be a lot easier to get a job at a EU major airline when there is a shortage than vice versa.
I know what I'm talking about, I used to have a GC and worked for CHQ. On a regular basis I got the, you work here we can't work overthere argument, thrown at me. There is no way I could get a job with any af the majors without getting the 4 year college degree ( although my education was much higher) and without being a American citizen. Well guess what, there are a lot more Americans/Canadians(percentage wise) working overhere than the other way around( at the majors that is)

But back to the topic EU/US open skies agreement.

greetings

 

[General Lee]

Well,

I don't see it that way. Look at NWA. The Netherlands have had an open skies agreement with the US since the early nineties. It means that KLM still only flies to points in the states without onward travel, however NWA has been flying to AMS and onward to India and the likes, picking up pax in AMS.

Also what do you mean by lower wages for the European carriers. Seems to me that with all the hits the legacies have taken that the wages at the legacies in Europe are now higher than the wages in the states. I am not up on the scales in the states but I think somewhere I saw scales for a NWA B747 Cpt posted as 140.000. At KLM a Cpt B747 makes 220.000 euros which would be the equivalent to USD 286.000.

Also the market in the states is pretty much saturated, where as in Europe with all the upcoming economies of the former eastern block/Balkan countries there are still a lot of untouched opportunities.

Seems to me whenever there is a change in law, guys are screeming how unfair it all is to the good o'll United States family just trying to make a living. Well guess what.... we have the same concerns about the the US carriers over here. Hstory shows that US carriers have flown more overhere(cabbotage( fifth freedom of the air)) than vice versa.

greetings

A skyteam member

Can you give me a CURRENT example of a US carrier flying to the EU and continuing on to another city in the EU? There are none. We have one airline, NWA, that flies from a EU city (AMS) onto India. Delta now flies nonstop from JFK. We don't have any plans to fly INTRA EU, or even INTRA England or INTRA Germany, but your EU wants to try to fly within the US someday, because they see some potential growth inside the US and less inside the EU. Also, we may have finally broke down the Heathrow fortress. Funny how a new country in Eastern Europe or a "Stan" (like Krigistan) can get slots at LHR, and one of the biggest airlines in the world (like DL or CAL) could not. Yes, it was agreed upon, but British Air took advantage of that, and now they will finally face the music. Have we slot constrained our major airports and left out any airports for British Air or KLM? No. (KLM 777s can't fly into LGA or DCA, so that is not an issue)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Lear70]

I don't see it that way. Look at NWA. The Netherlands have had an open skies agreement with the US since the early nineties. It means that KLM still only flies to points in the states without onward travel, however NWA has been flying to AMS and onward to India and the likes, picking up pax in AMS.

That statement tells me you don't understand your own competition in your own marketplace.

I don't give a crap if you guys want to fly here to the U.S., then go on TO ANOTHER COUNTRY. Have at it. That's not what this is about.

Northwest does NOT fly to AMS, then up to London, then over to East Midlands, etc...

THAT would be an accurate comparison; yours is not.

Also what do you mean by lower wages for the European carriers. Seems to me that with all the hits the legacies have taken that the wages at the legacies in Europe are now higher than the wages in the states. I am not up on the scales in the states but I think somewhere I saw scales for a NWA B747 Cpt posted as 140.000. At KLM a Cpt B747 makes 220.000 euros which would be the equivalent to USD 286.000.

We're not worried about KLM. We're worried about the carriers such as Ryan, Branson's Virgin America (which no longer would need a U.S. operating certificate to operate inside the U.S. point to point and has salaries that would drive me out of the market).

Incidentally, a NWA 747 CA makes about $180k a year.

Also the market in the states is pretty much saturated, where as in Europe with all the upcoming economies of the former eastern block/Balkan countries there are still a lot of untouched opportunities.

That isn't stopping Branson, is it?

It wouldn't stop any other European carrier who could come in with those rediculous Ryanesque $19 per leg fares.

Additionally, here in the U.S. we limit the number of seats we sell at our low fares. The Ryan type carriers don't.

It WILL put SEVERE pressure on airline salaries. Wait and see.

Seems to me whenever there is a change in law, guys are screeming how unfair it all is to the good o'll United States family just trying to make a living. Well guess what.... we have the same concerns about the the US carriers over here. Hstory shows that US carriers have flown more overhere(cabbotage( fifth freedom of the air)) than vice versa.

I would like EXACT SPECIFICS.

Please list EXACTLY how cabotage is affecting European carriers, specifically what routes we are taking over INSIDE the U.K.?

The open skies agreement is between the US and EU,. Some posters have voiced concerns about cheap labor coming from all over the world. This is not an issue since the agreement once again is between US and EU.

Nope, just the EU.

European danged protectionist.................I have to take issue with that. It is just as hard for an European guy to work in the US as vice versa.

Absolute CRAP.

A U.S. Citizen can't get a UK Passport, which is required for ANY decent job in the UK. I know, I searched for YEARS after 9/11... No UK passport, no UK job.

However, at the same time, I can name 2 dozen European pilots who were hired on at my carrier here in the U.S.

It's not a level playing field. Deal with it and move on.

I dare say that the proces of getting the JAA licenses is less difficult than getting the background checks in the US. When pilot shortage hit the EU it is a lot easier to bypass the laws(recently Ryan air had shortages and were actually looking for US 737 rated guys).

That would NEVER happen in the US.

Again, you're not comparing apples to apples.

The process of getting the JAA licenses is a LOT harder (and more expensive) than the background checks here.


Second, that bypass only worked for EU citizens.

For someone taking the time to get the JAA licences it would be a lot easier to get a job at a EU major airline when there is a shortage than vice versa.

Hmmm, that's great. If I get my JAA licenses, will you get me hired on a British Airways? KLM?

I thought not.

I know what I'm talking about, I used to have a GC and worked for CHQ. On a regular basis I got the, you work here we can't work overthere argument, thrown at me. There is no way I could get a job with any af the majors without getting the 4 year college degree ( although my education was much higher) and without being a American citizen. Well guess what, there are a lot more Americans/Canadians(percentage wise) working overhere than the other way around( at the majors that is)

[/quote]
Only 3 majors require a 4 year degree.

Obviously you don't know what the hell you're talking about after all.

 

[Phaedrus]

Punked.

 

[flyburg]

That statement tells me you don't understand your own competition in your own marketplace.

I don't give a crap if you guys want to fly here to the U.S., then go on TO ANOTHER COUNTRY. Have at it. That's not what this is about.

Northwest does NOT fly to AMS, then up to London, then over to East Midlands, etc...

THAT would be an accurate comparison; yours is not.


We're not worried about KLM. We're worried about the carriers such as Ryan, Branson's Virgin America (which no longer would need a U.S. operating certificate to operate inside the U.S. point to point and has salaries that would drive me out of the market).

Incidentally, a NWA 747 CA makes about $180k a year.


That isn't stopping Branson, is it?

It wouldn't stop any other European carrier who could come in with those rediculous Ryanesque $19 per leg fares.

Additionally, here in the U.S. we limit the number of seats we sell at our low fares. The Ryan type carriers don't.

It WILL put SEVERE pressure on airline salaries. Wait and see.


I would like EXACT SPECIFICS.

Please list EXACTLY how cabotage is affecting European carriers, specifically what routes we are taking over INSIDE the U.K.?


Nope, just the EU.


Absolute CRAP.

A U.S. Citizen can't get a UK Passport, which is required for ANY decent job in the UK. I know, I searched for YEARS after 9/11... No UK passport, no UK job.

However, at the same time, I can name 2 dozen European pilots who were hired on at my carrier here in the U.S.

It's not a level playing field. Deal with it and move on.


Again, you're not comparing apples to apples.

The process of getting the JAA licenses is a LOT harder (and more expensive) than the background checks here.


Second, that bypass only worked for EU citizens.


Hmmm, that's great. If I get my JAA licenses, will you get me hired on a British Airways? KLM?

I thought not.

Only 3 majors require a 4 year degree.

Obviously you don't know what the hell you're talking about after all. [/quote]


Geez dude, I don't even know where to start. You and I have I complete different outlook on the world. You tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about???

I'll try and start from the beginning

NWA does not fly to x then y then Z. I think this is exactly what the new agreement is about. Fly to one destination then onto the next in Europe. What did you think it was about???


you are not worried about KLM but over Ryan air etc. etc. Funny that Transavia Airlines for the last summers has wet leased Sun Country airlines that operated overhere on their on certificate while every winter Transavia has dry leased A/C to Sun because they couldn't operate in the US without a 121 certificate.


Like I said, I'm not up to date on the NWA payscales, I just read them on here.

Branson: It still remains to be seen whether they are going to make it, mean while it remains open to any US carrier to do the same over here. I know UPS is already interested in buying TNT and getting a base in Liege.

On the subject of passports and JAA licenses, well we just have to disagree. You say you have to have a passport in the EU, I don't ,just the right to work, just like the states. However I have a lot of buddies in the states that don't get hired because they don't have passports.

As for the 4 year collega degree, dude, get real, how many single/married white males get hired without a degree????????

Finally and last, You talk about point to point in the UK, That's not really realistic, it would be like comparing Travel within Indiana or whatever state. If you want to make a serious comparions between EUrope and the EU consider it the united states of Europe, because that's what the open skies agreement is about.

DO YOU REALLY THINK there would be any difference between a US carrier starting up something overhere compared to a EU carrier starting up something overthere???????????.........Think again.

Lastly, having experienced both sides I think I'am little bit more qualified to comment on both sides of the issues than some redneck A'hole that thinks the worls revolves around the US of the A

 

[Phaedrus]

Lastly, having experienced both sides I think I'am little bit more qualified to...

Both sides, eh? Hmmmmm.