"Open Skies" revealed

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Foriegn control is not a bad thing, you guys seem to be worried that it will destroy your careers. Well, you really can't fall off the floor can you?

Why is that?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The responsibility of the current state of ALPA lies mostly at the feet of apathetic pilot groups.

Occasionally, the pilots will recognize that they are being led by weasels who are hiding from flying the line and boot them out. But they eventually return and the pilot group wears out, loses interest and allows them to stay in office.

This culture becomes entrenched and as hiring goes on, the syncophants coming in the door find their way to LEC meetings and start committee work, eventually replacing the ineffective "leaders" who are retiring with half the flight time of a 'non-union official' pilot.

This goes all the way to the top. From Hank Duffy standing idly by while random drug testing and security checks (now ad hoc breathalyzer tests) were foisted upon professional airline pilots to Randy Babbitt to DW ALPA's leaders have failed to lead because they all came from the same incestuous breeding ground that rewards political cronyism and inaction while appearing to be busy.

Rez, your call to contribute to the PAC's is falling of deaf ears the same way calls to contribute to either of the National Political Parties has with their members. People are struggling to keep their heads above water on a daily basis and have neither the time nor the money to throw at an organization that they once trusted but has all but abandoned them.

ALPA is like a crack whore--they will have to hit rock bottom, destroying lives in the process, before they can start to recover and once again become a useful, functioning member of society.TC

TC-

No doubt a valid perspective...... but where do we go from here....? That is the million dollar question....

You have correctly identified that we are lost. Now what?

Resign ourselves to our situation?

Determine where we are?

Decide where we want to go?


That is my point and mantra....

What are we going to do about it?

 

[GogglesPisano]

Foriegn control is not a bad thing, you guys seem to be worried that it will destroy your careers. Well, you really can't fall off the floor can you?

Maybe foreign control is a flight of stairs.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

TC-

No doubt a valid perspective...... but where do we go from here....? That is the million dollar question....

You have correctly identified that we are lost. Now what?

Resign ourselves to our situation?

Determine where we are?

Decide where we want to go?


That is my point and mantra....

What are we going to do about it?

The same thing we do with our government/politicians...nothing. Not enough people have the "Boston Tea Party" mentality to provoke serious change. TC nailed it.

 

[DougsRule]

AMEN Brother!!!

 

[JP4user]

AA717Driver....great message. Don't bother answering Rez as it is a waste of time. Duane doesn't want to hear anything that will knock his elitist position within the political circles in Washington.

 

[AA717driver]

TC-

No doubt a valid perspective...... but where do we go from here....? That is the million dollar question....

You have correctly identified that we are lost. Now what?

Resign ourselves to our situation?

Determine where we are?

Decide where we want to go?


That is my point and mantra....

What are we going to do about it?

We're not yet at the point that anything can or will be done. Like I said in the last paragraph, until ALPA hits rock bottom, no one will be motivated to have that "Boston Tea Party".

I don't know what form it will take--it could be a popular uprising like NJA had (having reached 'rock bottom' with a lousy T/A), changing the course of the national union by acting at the local level or it may take an AMFA-like movement (hopefully more successful) among the ALPA pilot groups, creating a new national union. TC

 

[JP4user]

We're not yet at the point that anything can or will be done. Like I said in the last paragraph, until ALPA hits rock bottom, no one will be motivated to have that "Boston Tea Party".

I don't know what form it will take--it could be a popular uprising like NJA had (having reached 'rock bottom' with a lousy T/A), changing the course of the national union by acting at the local level or it may take an AMFA-like movement (hopefully more successful) among the ALPA pilot groups, creating a new national union. TC

AA guys like Rez sitting in his comfortable office in Herndon making 2 to 3 times what their constituents are paid do not want to hear any talk like this. They want the membership to follow that same worn out mantra of if you don't like it talk to you rep. They know that the process gets so bogged down in politics and red tape that no one follows through anymore.

ALPA has a terminal case of cancer that needs radical treatment as soon as possible.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Hank Duffy standing idly by while random drug testing and security checks (now ad hoc breathalyzer tests) were foisted upon professional airline pilots to Randy Babbitt to DW ALPA's leaders have failed to lead because they all came from the same incestuous breeding ground that rewards political cronyism and inaction while appearing to be busy.

Hank, Randy, and Duane...what a merry band of stooges. Rez, TC said it better than I, but the bleeding will stop only when ALPA National doesn't have anyone to throw under the bus anymore to save themselves. These great men always found it easier to feed the alligator a little, buy themselves and their senior buddies some time, and move on. After all, they weren't paying for it.

Someone else alluded to it, and as my dear father would say "A union leader afraid of jail is no leader at all."

As far as the answer...I've said it before...learn Mandarin, buy a Cirrus, and vote with your feet. There will be no "American Aviation Industry" in 30 years.

The only answers were a nationwide seniority list, jets for mainline wages, and minimum contracts (mainline contracts which stipulated the minimum a commuter airline pilot would receive.) However, the golden children at US, DL, NW and UA were too busy getting an extra roll in their crew meal during contract time, and Duane, Hank and Randy were busy enjoying canapes in the Beltway circuit to risk jail.

Too late, Rez. Without a nationwide SOS, which the WN and B6 guys will not respect, the party is over. Maybe TC needs a copilot.

 

[freightdogfred]

Duane Woerth is a bold-faced liar, and if I ever meet him I'll tell him to his face...ALPA has turned into a corporation, designed to make profit for it's officers. Woerth's legacy will be that he was the man at the wheel when the ship went down. A sad end to a once noble and vital union.

 

[JP4user]

Hank, Randy, and Duane...what a merry band of stooges. Rez, TC said it better than I, but the bleeding will stop only when ALPA National doesn't have anyone to throw under the bus anymore to save themselves. These great men always found it easier to feed the alligator a little, buy themselves and their senior buddies some time, and move on. After all, they weren't paying for it.

Someone else alluded to it, and as my dear father would say "A union leader afraid of jail is no leader at all."

As far as the answer...I've said it before...learn Mandarin, buy a Cirrus, and vote with your feet. There will be no "American Aviation Industry" in 30 years.

The only answers were a nationwide seniority list, jets for mainline wages, and minimum contracts (mainline contracts which stipulated the minimum a commuter airline pilot would receive.) However, the golden children at US, DL, NW and UA were too busy getting an extra roll in their crew meal during contract time, and Duane, Hank and Randy were busy enjoying canapes in the Beltway circuit to risk jail.

Too late, Rez. Without a nationwide SOS, which the WN and B6 guys will not respect, the party is over. Maybe TC needs a copilot.

Well Rez? Another very pointed and accurate description of the cancer eating away at ALPA.

Nice message Ace but you are beating your head against the wall with this guy.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Probably, but people are seeing the light...I just wonder why I didn't 5 years
ago.

Sad thing that, all things being equal, we probably could compete in the global marketplace...however, the .gov views the airline industry as a revenue source, so we're strangled with taxes. Management views the airlines as a dumping ground for the incompetent, so we get the worst managers, with no vision. We really have no friends in the society at large, who see us as overpaid bus drivers, and our organizations as rapacious entities that overcharges and provides lousy service.

I think the final straw will be the fact that the airlines made very little headway during the most recent three years of economic recovery. Wait until we're in a recessionary cycle. Fuel prices are the most probable culprit, but the fact that the ATA did a very poor job on the Hill explaining that the industry was crippled, and ALPA playing catchup, when it played at all, created a perfect storm. It started with Alfred Kahn, and probably ended on 9/11. The rest is epilouge for most of us.

Our clueless political class, now sees "Open Skies" as the way to mend fences with our allies across the Atlantic, and European airlines are licking their chops like a cheetah looking at the crippled wildebeast. They've got backing of their governments, and their management is smart and driven (Branson, O'Leary, et al) Our government is going to throw us under the bus. Watch it happen.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA has a terminal case of cancer that needs radical treatment as soon as possible.

I am all for empowerment of the membership... bring it on!

You just want to sit in your lazy boy and calim victim status as you send your union leadership to jail for illegal job actions. You are so filled with hate you don't know who to fight....

Radicalism is for terrorist and religious cults..... not Air Line Pilots....

Got it? Probably not....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Too late, Rez. Without a nationwide SOS, which the WN and B6 guys will not respect, the party is over. Maybe TC needs a copilot.

Nationwide SOS is for radical mindless massess that wouldn't know effectiveness if Big Popi wacked them upside the head.....

TC and his co pilot are flying in circles well aware of their situation, with no one pressing EXEC.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Probably, but people are seeing the light...I just wonder why I didn't 5 years
ago.

Sad thing that, all things being equal, we probably could compete in the global marketplace...however, the .gov views the airline industry as a revenue source, so we're strangled with taxes. Management views the airlines as a dumping ground for the incompetent, so we get the worst managers, with no vision. We really have no friends in the society at large, who see us as overpaid bus drivers, and our organizations as rapacious entities that overcharges and provides lousy service.

I think the final straw will be the fact that the airlines made very little headway during the most recent three years of economic recovery. Wait until we're in a recessionary cycle. Fuel prices are the most probable culprit, but the fact that the ATA did a very poor job on the Hill explaining that the industry was crippled, and ALPA playing catchup, when it played at all, created a perfect storm. It started with Alfred Kahn, and probably ended on 9/11. The rest is epilouge for most of us.

Our clueless political class, now sees "Open Skies" as the way to mend fences with our allies across the Atlantic, and European airlines are licking their chops like a cheetah looking at the crippled wildebeast. They've got backing of their governments, and their management is smart and driven (Branson, O'Leary, et al) Our government is going to throw us under the bus. Watch it happen.

Ace good post.. valid points....

JP4User... are you taking notes. This is an informed post. I know you are a freshman when it comes to this type of high level information, but I think you can do it.....


Hopefully someone will do something... otherwise maybe we should just blow are brains out now....

 

[newnan]

Unfortunately the only ones benefiting from alpa are independent unions with the contract work we are receiving from them. They seem to now look to us to help raise the bar for them. As a nonunion commuter guy. when Comair wason strike, I looked at the situation as how in the world would they ever get fair representation when their parents were represented by the same union (I didn't have to pay for training). I watched as Mesa guys had stars in their eyes when the RJ's came to PHL and they got to fly an RJ. Big f'ing whoop de doo! Back then it didn't matter whether the fan was inside the cowling or outside. Lately it's been jets for jobs for the whole US Air debacle, etal. Point is, ALPA (or some national union) needs to develop unity accross all walks of professional aviation, until then the independents will continue to take advantage of ALPA national assets (paying for it of course) and ALPA as a whole will keep floundering. It's too bad that ALPA's biggest beneficiaries are non ALPA carriers benefitting from their services.
I know that has to grate on legacy ALPA carriers (if they know about it) ex. NW pay scales on the -9, FL's are higher based on relative senority. THAT SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 717 and DC9 are pretty close for the newbies.) As a LCC pilot I'd love to be making more but because of the glass ceiling (not a slit but because of a legacy carrier, I can[t make more

 

[shooter]

Foriegn control is not a bad thing, you guys seem to be worried that it will destroy your careers. Well, you really can't fall off the floor can you?

Be very careful of what you seem to be so indifferent about here. Majority foreign control would be too complicated to achieve while another half (the American if you will) needs to be concerned with security. Both sides would be at each other’s throats and be lucky if anything would get done. While all the bickering is going on, BA or Virgin takes over the market share. And if the foreign interests are the majority, they will always say that theirs is bigger so do it their way, period.

If you do not think that open skies would be the death to American owned and controlled airlines, you need to think again, go do some homework and come back to play another day. While you are diving into your reference books be sure to look up what happened to the maritime industry. Ever been on a cruise? Look at the flags and countries of all the ships in our ports. You will never see an American ship including the cruise ship you are enjoying that adult beverage on. And on them you will find no American Captains or crew. If you think the aviation industry will not suffer the same fate, you are greatly mistaken. You may, if you look hard enough, find one or two still working the Great Lakes. But I think they are all mostly Canadian.

I don’t care if someone is pro-ALPA or anti-ALPA, the fact is the Flight crews are one of the majorities of industry workers. Dispatchers, such as myself, are a very very small minority when it comes to numbers working in the industry. While we need to support the effort to stop foreign airlines open rights within our Country, we do not have the numbers to organize an effort to educate the American public and fellow industry workers. This is where we need the most help from you guys and ALPA. (Now that I think about it, maybe the public should stay out of it. They will only see the lower cost, not the safety and American jobs at stake).

At any rate, every worker at an American airline needs to write, call and barrage their Congressmen/Senators for the sake of the industry and ultimately, their jobs and future jobs. This needs to be a push by Pilots, Dispatchers and Flight Attendants at the front of the line. We were lucky to get a little more time on this deal going through. So how about it guys, keep pushing with other workers to keep American skies American! If your ALPA representatives can not see that, can you get them out by a no confidence vote or something? We need leaders to save our industry and you guys have the numbers. If I were in ALPA, I would not rest until this is dead on steps of the Capital building because my livelihood is at risk here. no matter how I felt about the organization. I am pretty vocal now, but my one voice is getting hoarse and I sure could use some help.

I’m with you guys that are trying to stop this!

P.S. Management is only looking at an infusion of cash, not whether the workers are American or "other". :angryfire

 

[JP4user]

Ace good post.. valid points....

JP4User... are you taking notes. This is an informed post. I know you are a freshman when it comes to this type of high level information, but I think you can do it.....


Hopefully someone will do something... otherwise maybe we should just blow are brains out now....

Good points on post 42 of his also, but you ignored that as it doesn't fit your continued denials and arrogance about the issues at hand. From your message are we to assume you are going to blow your brains out? Is that what we are to believe? Who will you leave all that money too Duane?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Good points on post 42 of his also, but you ignored that as it doesn't fit your continued denials and arrogance about the issues at hand. From your message are we to assume you are going to blow your brains out? Is that what we are to believe? Who will you leave all that money too Duane?

Still screaming from your foxhole.................

Sooner or later... probably later, you are going to get tired cowering in your foxhole. The pool of water, the maggots and worms and crappy food is going to trigger your breaking point....

Only then, Foxhole Francis, will you get up and take control of your situation. Because you will realize that expecting others to take care of you isn't working. No one cares about your blame game victim status.... Why? becuase they have thier own blame game victim mantra to chant.. or they are actually taking control of their lives and your attittude is counter productive.

As always......

I am all for reform, shaking up the establishment and getting ALPA to be much more effective.... Let's decertify ALPA and replace it with a better organization.... Whatever we need to do...let's do it..... (notice I see WE and not you or they)

The problem is....as the mortors and bullets are exploding over head the other guys....just like you, cowering in thier foxholes can't hear you very well.

Be a man.... take control of your situation. I support any action you decide to take to make ALPA better.... I just don't support your constant whinning about how you are a victim and how your life would be better if ALPA National would just do thier job....

 

[JP4user]

how your life would be better if ALPA National would just do thier job....

See Duane, that is the problem. ALPA national is not doing their jobs. They are just covering their ass, playing politics fighting tooth and nail of lowering themselves to go back to their respective airlines.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

See Duane, that is the problem. ALPA national is not doing their jobs. They are just covering their ass, playing politics fighting tooth and nail of lowering themselves to go back to their respective airlines.

Foxhole Francis....

I agree with you.......

When you get tired of the worms and sleeping in muddy water... maybe you'll do something about it....

Untill then, keep your head down......

 

[JP4user]

Foxhole Francis....

I agree with you.......

When you get tired of the worms and sleeping in muddy water... maybe you'll do something about it....

Untill then, keep your head down......

I already did something about it because I'm out of the foxhole Duane, lump sum intact on to greener pastures.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I already did something about it because I'm out of the foxhole Duane, lump sum intact on to greener pastures.

Let me get this straight.... you not even a player???

 

[JP4user]

Let me get this straight.... you not even a player???

Not any longer. Does that mean that I am not allowed to have an opinion after 26 years of union dues?

The problem is you guys at ALPA national in Washington aren't players either. Just parasites.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not any longer. Does that mean that I am not allowed to have an opinion after 26 years of union dues?

The problem is you guys at ALPA national in Washington aren't players either. Just parasites.

You'd think after 26 years of 1.95% you would've figured out how unions work..... how do you justify being so aloof and disengaged for so long? I mean that is a quarter of a century!

And I am not saying that if you did understand what your dues money did for you, that you'd become an ALPA supporter... NO! What I am saying is for all that money you don't even know how to effectively criticize ALPA.

Have you wondered- if there was no ALPA you could've had an extra 1.95% all those years...

What is 1.95% of 26 years of your annual income anyway?