Open Letter To Alpa Pilots

[bravodude]

FOXHUNTER,

Iwill be throwing a party in your honor when you hit the streat. Don't let the door hit you in the .....on the way out.

 

[furloughed dude]

Fox,

Serve some coffee boy... Not going to keep that window seat! Hah!!

 

[Big Duke Six]

Foxhunter,

I have to say, and I think I can speak for everyone on this, that we appreciate both your military service and the roller coaster you have ridden in your long career. Thank you. We sympathize.

But to the point, how can you NOT see that if this rule changes, you will be screwing thousands of pilots and THEIR families. What is it at United? How many seat changes are there with every upgrade? Four, five, six? Please try to see this. How long would that "30 years on the panel" guy have been there if it hadn't been for the Age 60 rule? 40? 50? Are you getting this? How long would your first furlough have lasted if they had changed the rule during your furlough? That's right, it would have been NINE YEARS instead of four. What would that have done to your career? You should be thanking God for the Age 60 rule, not trying to destroy it.

That would be the right thing to do, Sir.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Age 65 is coming, the key is to keep it off long enough to force out the few top people who are pushing the hardest. Did "Gene" finally hit retirement?

 

[JAM-BRO]

An Open Letter to Fellow ALPA Pilots, January 7, 2007



I remember graduating from college and reporting to Air Force Pilot Training in November of 1972. After 6 years on active duty and 1 year in the Reserves I was able to finally get my “dream” job as a pilot with Untied Airlines. I was hired in June of 1979, as a B-737 “Flight Engineer/Door Guard”, but I didn’t care, I had a great career in aviation ahead of me.
_______________________________________________

A career that back then and NOW ends on your 60th birthday. Hmmm!!! Why did you upgrade to a full 727 FE? Was it because someone retired...

My friend responded, “But this sounds a lot like the group of pilots that tried to take your job during the strike in May of 1985. What was the term you used to describe that group of pilots? This is a lack of consideration and respect for the striking pilots of May of 1985, who risked their jobs for the all the union pilots.”
_______________________________________________

FU!! I support AGE 60 and I will never be a SCAB, you a$$hol. AGE 60 was in place when you, me and everyone else embarked on this career. Now when you are on top, you wanna change how the game is played. Sorry, GAME OVER!!!! Have a wonderful retirement....

 

[Nindiri]

Nobody "signs on" to work until 60 or any other age. They just take the job that's offered to them.

 

[Green Banana]

This is a truly sad thread. This is the reason that the unions are so messed up. Everyone is so concerned with getting what they think is owed to them that they gladly stab the person in front of them, the person that built the profession you are wanting, in the back. I hope I never have to depend on any other pilot for a hand because from reading this post they are all a bunch of spoiled, self centered, conceded children.
Age 65 is coming. Deal with it. You are not owed that place in line. They are the ones with 30 years experience and dedication. You are the freshmen on the block.
Do me a favor and read FLYING THE LINE, Tighten your Tie, Straighten your union pin, and be part of the solution. Not the problem.
I am just glad that all pilots don't think like the children on this board or we would all be making $12K a year.

 

[Spectre]

A career that back then and NOW ends on your 60th birthday. Hmmm!!! Why did you upgrade to a full 727 FE? Was it because someone retired...



FU!! I support AGE 60 and I will never be a SCAB, you a$$hol. AGE 60 was in place when you, me and everyone else embarked on this career. Now when you are on top, you wanna change how the game is played. Sorry, GAME OVER!!!! Have a wonderful retirement....

There are already pilots from international airlines who fly over AMERICAN airspace and are between 60-65 years old. Will ALPA do anything about this? If the FAA already approves international pilots over 60, there's nothing going to stop it, not even ALPA.

 

[mdanno808]

There are already pilots from international airlines who fly over AMERICAN airspace and are between 60-65 years old. Will ALPA do anything about this? If the FAA already approves international pilots over 60, there's nothing going to stop it, not even ALPA.

ALPA has nothing to do with what foreign airlines do or don't, end of story.

 

[mdanno808]

Dashtrash said:

Everyone is so concerned with getting what they think is owed to them that they gladly stab the person in front of them...

This can be said for both sides of the argument.

 

[Ty Webb]

As someone else mentioned, a more logical move would be to allow the 60-65 guys to fly as FO. That way, they don't stand in the way of anyone's upgrade . . . . although it would slow down furloughees returning to the line.

 

[BoilerUP]

As someone else mentioned, a more logical move would be to allow the 60-65 guys to fly as FO. That way, they don't stand in the way of anyone's upgrade . . . . although it would slow down furloughees returning to the line.

God forbid there be a compromise!!!!

 

[PastV1]

God forbid there be a compromise!!!!

I don't think Fox wrote that letter. Just posted it. Dates seem a little wrong for him.

Past....

 

[Ty Webb]

Has anyone else noticed that the most vocal "age 65" supporters tend to be the guys who really, really need to retire?

.

 

[Flopgut]

Airline pilot earnings are based on a retirement age of 60. There are NO career expectations after age 60. This UAL guy wants to sieze the rightful career expectations of another pilot outside the collective bargaining process. That's as close to being a "replacement worker" as you can get.

There's another part to the story of the 85 strike. The FAL guys had a standing offer to cross that line, and they did NOT! UAL pilots thanked them by taking their planes and gates and had the pilots specifically removed from the deal. They lost their fully funded pension and ended up a CAL for the most part. I work with some of these guys at CAL; they have zero regard for UALALPA types of this guys' generation. It was the worst ALPA eating ALPA act ever.

 

[FoxHunter]

FOXHUNTER,

Iwill be throwing a party in your honor when you hit the streat. Don't let the door hit you in the .....on the way out.

Cookies and Milk, my guess?:laugh:

 

[svcta]

Fox, you're not helping yourself with the "kiddie pool" comments, or by saying that you can "still do this job better than XXXX." You're not dealing with bunch of kids(in every case). Stop being so concieted. Also, experience entails knowing that you are NOT in fact better than everybody. So, tell me how your attitude meshes with you argument?

 

[bravodude]

Cookies and Milk, my guess?:laugh:

Its all in good fun (i hope you know). While I really do hate that you gus lost so much why can't you see our side of this argument. There really should be a compromise. It should not be all or nothing. I still do not want to see the age change but I don't think my opinion counts. Just out of curiosity why not retire and go to a fractional or corporate gig?

 

[Falconjet]

Dicklicker never served a day in the military. He couldn't have lasted a day in the military, he's too big a puzzy.

FJ

 

[Flythis]

Just as long as I get mine. Oops, I think I lost it.

 

[FoxHunter]

Dicklicker never served a day in the military. He couldn't have lasted a day in the military, he's too big a puzzy.

FJ

Hmm? Spent a nice summer vacation on a little island in SC. Said I was to be a 0311. They did say you guys were "shallow water sailors".

 

[Occam's Razor]

"Not all the little turtles make it to the sea"

 

[Falconjet]

Hmmmmmmm. I wonder why Foxhunter would have quoted and responded to my post.

FJ

 

[ualgrizz]

Foxhunter, did you overfly guarantee while your "brother" pilots were furloughed? Seems as if many of your peers kept a lot of us on the street much longer than needed.

Did you have a calrec hanging on the board, punk? Get out of here!

Grizz

 

[g-code]

Just to add a different perspective for once on FI......

I'm currently 20 and I am a flight student. When I wanted to start flight training, I was uninformed about flight schools and was actively thinking about going to RAA simply because I was uninformed. I came here and asked for an opinion from guys who knew, and I am now at Wright Flyers in SATX, and I am happy that I have gone that direction.

However, when I see all of you "real" pilots fighting on here it really makes me sick. All of you are either for or against Age 65 for ONE reason: Every single one of you only cares about yourself. If you are young, you call the older guys 'selfish, unprepared dinosaurs'. If you are old, you call the younger guys 'selfish ungrateful p$icks....' And lets not forget that 65 is only safe if YOU are the one in the left seat......

My point is, you are all trying to look out for number one, and if you say you aren't then you are truly a liar. Yet, at the same time you talk about 'holding up the profession' and 'solidarity'. How is calling each other names going to do that? I'm sure management is going to have a field day with this, because no one can come to an agreement.

Do I think 65 is safe? Lets be honest: It is. Barring a heart attack (which can happen to ANYONE) it is safe. Is it going to suck if you are not a captain? Probably, but that remains to be seen with medicals and stuff like that.

Now I know by now, you are all pissed off and thinking, "what does this little a$$ know with 60ish hours?" I do know a little something the industry and ALPA. Why? I am reluctant to reveal, especially on this forum, that my father is a UA 777 captain.

Why am I reluctant? Because I know that I will get flamed, and that "I haven't really paid my dues," or "oh he will get the job because of his father...," etc. because professional pilots see each other as COMPETITION instead of COLLEAGUES.

I am cool with that though because I didn't choose to be dealt these cards, and I guess I just got lucky. You can all flame-away, because if you were at a regional and got offered an interview at a major with fewer hours than "guys who paid their dues," because of someone in your family, you would do the EXACT SAME THING and take the opportunity.

Now that you all know I am a heretic, here's my point on the rule. Does the age change suck for the younger guys? Yes. Everyone wants to be in the left seat, make the big bucks, and be like the guy on the AA Boston-Paris video. Age 65 will potentially make you wait up to 5 years for that upgrade that you have always dreamed about.

But wait a second, aren't these "old dinosaurs" are the guys that were your IPs in the military, captains that 'showed you the ropes' as a new FO, and in United's case the guys that struck the 'B' scale with NO compensation from ALPA (as my 57 year-old father LOVES to point out )???

My father turns 58 this July. He can't touch social security until he is 65, and the PBGC will not give him the full retirement amount unless he works until 65. Did he "plan poorly" for retirement? Only a management scumbag or selfish p$ick would say yes. He had a contract with the company for a defined retirement and he was lied to late in his career. While management gets bonuses, he gets an application to be a Wal-Mart greeter after 30 years with the company.

For the younger guys, that is like management burning your Roth IRA or 401K in front of your eyes when YOU are 58 and saying 'oops sorry, turn off the lights on your way out and uhhh, thanks for helping save the airline and more importantly my stock options,"

Be angry at MANAGEMENT, not your FELLOW pilot! Be angry that you are all in this position by FORCE, not by your own CHOICE! It is sad to see all of you act like enemies, when you should be eachother's best friend.

I guess for me, when I sit back and chew on this, I come to 3 conclusions.

1) I love to fly so the longer I can do that, the better. Im going to be old anyway, so I guess its better to be old at FL370.
2) Social Security and retirements in general are not getting any better, so us younger guys are going to need all of the extra years we can in the cockpit to make up for that shortfall. It sucks.
3) These "old dinosaurs" are the guys that taught us younger guys how to fly. They are your IP from the military, and they are the cool captains you remember that taught you tricks in the cockpit, or told you which FA's put out. They are the guys that made this career so kick-a$$ before 9/11 and now the majority of us are telling them "get out of my seat." Is it even YOUR seat?????

By the way, nice example you are setting for guys who are just starting out.....when the FAA starts deciding whether to change the age to 70 or not, go pound sand Mr. 797 captain and don't think for one second that I'm going to let your dusty a$$ keep me from getting mine......Just kidding. I don't sell out my mentors.


.....and just remember, you are going to be 'my' dinosaur, so set a good example.

 

[LearLove]

CA McBride and Foxhunter,

Sit on it and rotate.


Sincerely,

Learlove

 

[warbirdfinder]

Imadumbpilot wrote:
ALPA opposes age 60 because of safety of flight...

Pure crap! When the age 60 rule was implimented in 1959, ALPA fought like hell to have it revoked. Age discrimantion, etc, etc. Only when the years went by and its members were younger did ALPA change its position.

 

[FoxHunter]

Hmmmmmmm. I wonder why Foxhunter would have quoted and responded to my post.

FJ

Because I have your number!

 

[Neubyfly]

I wonder if Captain McBribe picked up any open-time while guys were on furlough?

 

[Big Duke Six]

G-code:

Here's a question for you. First:

You're exactly right. With very few exceptions, I don't think anyone on here has tried to pretend that this is about anything more than money.

We all symapathize with the guys who have lost pensions, including your dad. Your father is very fortunate to have kept flying throughout all of this. If your father is SO in favor of "everybody looking out for each other", then what does he propose we do to help the guys who were furloughed while he kept flying? How does he reconcile the fact that because he'll be able to keep flying now, there will many others who'll be kept out?

See, the problem is that in order for your dad to stay, there will be at least one guy who remains furloughed and MANY others denied an improvement in their quality of life. Is that fair? I forget the exact number, but every time someone at UAL retires, there are about 5 seat changes that result.

I myself have a dog in this fight too. If this passes I won't upgrade for at least 5 more years. So my salary will be roughly HALF of what it would have been for those five years, or to put it in dollars, I'll lose about $350,000 in those five years. Let's see, any accountants out there? What is the time value of that money invested over 15 years before I turn 60? The real result, and don't let anyone kid you, is that with that kind of loss I won't have the "option" of retiring at 60, as they like to suggest, but rather I'll be FORCED to work to 70 to make up for it. Get it?

Whether your dad will admit this or not, during his long and illustrious career, he silently thanked God everytime someone senior to him retired or left the industry. Even YOU benefitted from the age 60 rule in a huge way, my friend. Remember those birthdays dad was finally able to be home for? Remember that shiny new bike he was finally able to afford when you were young? Thank the retirees ahead of your dad. Was your dad fighting to keep those guys on board then? You know he wasn't, and this industry has seen some rough times before. This is not new.

The bottom line is that the junior folk will lose FAR MORE than the senior people will gain. If it was an even trade, I might reconsider but until there is some way to resolve that, my vote is NO.